Question about Trilbies and Fedoras

[rue]

In an argument about the difference between a Fedora and a Trilby someone had this to say:

"Originally, both words were the names of the female leads in 19th century plays. Supposedly, both characters wore similar hats and the names of the characters came to be used to describe those hats, but for some reason "fedora" caught on in the US and "trilby" caught on in the states. [I write "supposedly" because I've seen some early 20th c. ads that described stiff brim hats, which I would normally consider homburgs as "fedora-style". The sample is too small, however, to make any sort of causation argument, rather than that the advertisers were mistaken.] Trilby doesn't show up in US sources until post-WWII, when globalization is starting to kick in. So, as lapels and hat brim sizes start to shrink, Americans are introduced to the British term for what is essentially the same hat, but is generally taken to refer to the new style. Meanwhile, on the other side of the pond, use of the word "fedora" really doesn't become prevalent until around the time that Nutter was introducting wider lapels and brims.

At least, that's my hypothesis. It's largely based on anecdotes and playing around with ngram on Google, accounting for geography, of course. So far, I haven't seen much to disprove it, beyond the usual correlation isn't causation stuff."

What do you guys have to say?

 

[Tomasso]

:sleep:

 

[rue]

Yeah... I guess no one cares lol

 

[Chascomm]

You might be entirely wrong, but I've more or less come to a similar conclusion. The only other term that needs to be worked into this thesis is "slouch hat", which I've seen in British writings of the inter-war period seemingly referring to an American-style fedora/trilby with a broader brim. Leslie Charteris used the term to describe the hat preferred by the Saint. And now I think about it, Jack Higgins as late as the 1960s used it to describe a broader brimmed soft hat.

(Here in Australia, "slouch hat" has an entirely different meaning that has no relevance to the dicussion)

 

[Tomasso]

Yeah... I guess no one cares lol

The Hats section is kinda like a Playboy magazine, where most guys pass over the articles to get to the photos.

 

[RBH]

Its not there is no interest its just been gone over time and again.

A google search found these among others

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?45121-Trilby-Vs-Fedora-what-s-the-difference

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?6837-Trilby-vs-Fedora


Google had this to say as to the origin of trilby....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trilby

Till this search I never knew the word referenced a novel.

 

[DJH]

Rusty, we might have gone over this before, but it's an excuse for a pic of one of the top trilby wearers

 

[AntonAAK]

In an argument about the difference between a Fedora and a Trilby someone had this to say:

"Originally, both words were the names of the female leads in 19th century plays. Supposedly, both characters wore similar hats and the names of the characters came to be used to describe those hats, but for some reason "fedora" caught on in the US and "trilby" caught on in the states. [I write "supposedly" because I've seen some early 20th c. ads that described stiff brim hats, which I would normally consider homburgs as "fedora-style". The sample is too small, however, to make any sort of causation argument, rather than that the advertisers were mistaken.] Trilby doesn't show up in US sources until post-WWII, when globalization is starting to kick in. So, as lapels and hat brim sizes start to shrink, Americans are introduced to the British term for what is essentially the same hat, but is generally taken to refer to the new style. Meanwhile, on the other side of the pond, use of the word "fedora" really doesn't become prevalent until around the time that Nutter was introducting wider lapels and brims.

At least, that's my hypothesis. It's largely based on anecdotes and playing around with ngram on Google, accounting for geography, of course. So far, I haven't seen much to disprove it, beyond the usual correlation isn't causation stuff."

What do you guys have to say?

Actually, I think that makes a lot of sense.

 

[gtdean48]

The Hats section is kinda like a Playboy magazine, where most guys pass over the articles to get to the photos.

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap Well put AC!

 

[Edward]

I'm inclined to agree with the article. There certainly are those who ascribe different styles to the different terms, but in the common parlance of those whom I know who lived the generation when hats were the norm, the Yanks called 'em fedoras, the Brits trilbys.

 

[KingAndrew]

So this is basically another example of the bowler vs. derby school of different names on each side of the Atlantic? Seems plausible.

 

[Edward]

So this is basically another example of the bowler vs. derby school of different names on each side of the Atlantic? Seems plausible.

Potato, potato...

 

[fedoracentric]

Before coming here, I never even considered a trilby to BE a fedora! I always associated the word trilby with those goofy hats with the upturned brims that were only about an inch wide.

Like this thing...


And, yes, I hate them.

To me a fedora is a soft felt hat with a 2-1/4 inch brim or larger.

Also, a "slouch hat" is a military soft felt hat. I have never seen it associated with a regular fedora before... then again, I don't read mystery books.

 

[rue]

The Hats section is kinda like a Playboy magazine, where most guys pass over the articles to get to the photos.

lol

Its not there is no interest its just been gone over time and again.

A google search found these among others

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?45121-Trilby-Vs-Fedora-what-s-the-difference

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?6837-Trilby-vs-Fedora


Google had this to say as to the origin of trilby....

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trilby

Till this search I never knew the word referenced a novel.

Thank you RBH! I was in the middle of a heated argument and didn't have time to look. Sorry about that

 

[rue]

And thank you everyone for your answers as well

 

[gtdean48]

Slouch hat was around in the Civil War period = civilian hats turned into military use.
There are stories of soldiers knocking hats off of civilians heads with tree limbs as they stuck their heads out of trains to see the troops.
These hats then volunteered for military service with the soldiers that they fit....the weather & hard use changed their shapes drastically.

 

[dhermann1]

First of all, hasn't anyone noticed the obvious typo inthe first post, that refers to the "states" vs. the "US". A bit confusing. I assume that they meant the UK when they said states.
Anyhow, I've been seeing LOTS of trilbies lately, and I had come to the conclusion that a trilby was a brimmed hat created out of three sections, sewn together. There is a seam around the top of the crown, and another down the back of the crown. And the brim is a third section. Most, if not all, of the trilbies I've seen are made of some woven fabric, as well.
The first notable trilby that I became aware of was the one worn by Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady. Clearly some kind of heavy tweedy material, sewn into a hat.
Am I missing something here???

 

[alanfgag]

First of all, hasn't anyone noticed the obvious typo inthe first post, that refers to the "states" vs. the "US". A bit confusing. I assume that they meant the UK when they said states.

Took all my self discipline not to play with it.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Robert (rlk) put together an extremely convincing argument that the Fedora took its name from the play but not the female character, and was instead probably inspired by the hat the male lead wore, since the earliest appearance of a hat known as a Fedora (a Knox, BTW) was shortly after the play's debut, and was advertised as a hat for specifically for men. I think this is a case where conventional wisdom has been wrong for a century, and it's up to us to correct it. Kind of like the myth that "JFK killed hats."

Brad

 

[Aerol]

First of all, hasn't anyone noticed the obvious typo inthe first post, that refers to the "states" vs. the "US". A bit confusing. I assume that they meant the UK when they said states.
Anyhow, I've been seeing LOTS of trilbies lately, and I had come to the conclusion that a trilby was a brimmed hat created out of three sections, sewn together. There is a seam around the top of the crown, and another down the back of the crown. And the brim is a third section. Most, if not all, of the trilbies I've seen are made of some woven fabric, as well.
The first notable trilby that I became aware of was the one worn by Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady. Clearly some kind of heavy tweedy material, sewn into a hat.
Am I missing something here???

Lots of Trilbys, no 3-piece hats: http://www.lockhatters.co.uk/Trilbys-list.aspx