Quality of modern vs. vintage Borsalinos

[vonwotan]

BTW - Bartenders, feel free to merge this with the other thread regarding Borso quality. I thought we were a bit side tracked and I am quite interested in learning more on this topic.

I am curious to hear opinions about the diffence in quality between today's Borsos and those pre-1960s Borsos. I am relatively new to vintage hats, other than hand-me-downs, and have always worn Borsos purchased at a shop in NYC.

Although I now see, fairly clearly, the difference in quality I also have to say that I love the very soft felt of my modern Borsos. At one time this softness and the texture of these hats is what I used as my yardstick for quality - I don't know how many wonderful hats I did not purchase because they were stiff or different than the Borsos I usually wore.

Knowing now that I can find custom hats for nearly the same price, I feel I may have overpaid, but I do think Borsos remain a good quality hat.

 

[Joel Tunnah]

The complaints against them on this forum (aside from the price), are that they don't hold up - they disintegrate in rain, taper dramatically, etc.

It sounds like you are fully qualified to comment on whether this is true or not, since you've owned many modern Borsalinos.

Other than the $400 brillo pads that they sell at Brooks Brothers, I haven't held a "real" modern Borsalino. (Do they have two different qualities? one for hat stores, and one for men's clothes shops? I hope so.)

Joel

 

[scotrace]

I owned one wonderful vintage Borsalino. The felt was so soft and thin it lost its bash in a good wind. After 60 years, there was no taper. I wish it had fit. But I sold it on.

At Ben Silver's in Charleston, I held the first modern Borsalinos I've seen, and there was no comparison at all. They felt poorly made, and were badly styled. Afterthought hats. And they were quite pricey. In their catalog, they offer a Montecisti Panama for $800 that you could surpass here with one from Panamabob for $100.

They have that magic Borsalino name though.

 

[Rick Blaine]

say what you will about the materials, I dunno, I have never seen a contemporary Borsalino. But so far as styling/cut/design goes this current offering :

is a dead ringer for my c. 1959 Borsalino Alessandria.

 

[vonwotan]

Part I

I just took some pictures of the two Borsos I have worn regularly for a number of years. If the primary criticism is that they don't hold up in weather, after seeing some other hats (Akubras, vintage Borsos, Stetsons, etc.) I can't really disagree. They do seem comparatively less durable, but the feld is softer and thinner than most so I don't know whether it should be surprising.

That said, my exprience was always limited to modern Borsos so regular maintenance at JJ seemed normal. I have only been truly disappointed by one of my Borsos that really lost its shape and tightened up more than any other after going through a Nor'easter.

The first three photos are a Lido that I have worn regularly over the past twelve years. It is the one I wore when training my dogs and guiding hunts in Long Island and has seen a lot of bad weather. I did have to have it stretched a a few times after some thorough soakings and it has been cleaned and blocked almost annually - it also time for a new liner. (You'll also notice I've pinched this one quite a bit...)

 

[vonwotan]

Part two

This second hat is my newest modern Borso. I've had it for a little over six years and have worn it as one of two regular commuting hats. Until recently my commute was a twenty minute walk down a very windy Beacon Street to the financial district so it didn't have prolonged exposure to foul weather, but regularly dried sitting on a desk in my office.

I chose these two since they have had considerably more use than any of my other hats. Again, regular maintenance at JJ was something I always accepted as "normal" so it has been cleaned and blocked on at least three or four visits. Given my limited experience I thought these were holding up rather well. However, it seems from what I have read in the FL, that there are any number of vintage or modern hats by other makers that might look less worn with less maintenance?

 

[feltfan]

The first three photos are a Lido that I have worn regularly over the past twelve years. It is the one I wore when training my dogs and guiding hunts in Long Island and has seen a lot of bad weather. I did have to have it stretched a a few times after some thorough soakings and it has been cleaned and blocked almost annually - it also time for a new liner. (You'll also notice I've pinched this one quite a bit...)

I'll be curious to hear what you make of this hat
when that lightweight vintage Borsalino you just won
comes in.

No offense, but the taper and wrinkles in the leather
sweat band just won't happen with a quality vintage Borsalino.

Thing is, a good vintage Borsalino is a magic hat. It may well
be able to remember its block after rolling or 50 years of abuse.
It may be much lighter than you could have thought possible.
It might have proportions that just aren't done today. It'll have
that touch of a master hatter so rarely found outside of custom.
It may be too fine for daily use, but it has a quality you will always
remember.

As far as I can tell, the Borsalino name was simply sold to people
who no longer get that. Maybe the market has changed. Maybe
the suppliers have changed. But for whatever reason, I just don't
see spending $400 on something ordinary when you can spend
$250 (or much less) for a vintage that is something special.

 

[vonwotan]

Feltfan - I do agree that my modern Borsos are nothing like the few vintage Borsos I have recenlty purchased. The vintage hats are superior in quality and, IMHO style. I can't wait to see the new lightweight. It may be a while before I learn how well they hold up in comparison to the modern hats. I do have my great uncles old Habig fedora and tyrolean and those are in great shape but rarely worn.

Do you find that you wear your vintage hats more often than anything else? When the weather is particularly bad, so far, I opt for the modern hats because they can be replaced.

BTW - After buying my first custom hat from Art I'm not likely to buy another new Borso unless it's pre 1960s.

 

[vonwotan]

One more thought - does anyone find the quality of the modern Borsos to be variable? I have another that I dont wear that often. I often wish it were another color because it seems more solid than some of the others. The felt is a bit stiff in comparison to some, but the sweat is buttery soft - if you fold it down the inside feels like the finest suede and the crown has retained the blocking better than my others.

It seems to me that many styles come with a bit of taper out of the box, as is the case with this black Como from JJ.

 

[cookie]

Borsas

How are vintage Borsas numbered please ?

 

[feltfan]

Pretty much all I wear is vintage hats.
I have some modern factory hats (a couple of
better Biltmores and maybe one or two others) but
they sit in boxes in the basement. They just
didn't hold up. I may offer them for sale here some day.

I tend not to wear very light colored hats during bad
weather. I worry about stains since it's hard to find
good hat cleaners. Other than that, I wear my vintage hats.
Borsalinos, Cavanaghs, Dobbs, Stetsons. No problems
so far. But it has only been about ten years or so.
Of course many of them served others for decades
before they got to me.

I meant to add that the old Borsalinos have a style-
a way of floating on the head or something - that you
just do not see from even the newest modern hat.

Others on this site have reported that the quality
of modern Borsalinos varies. But they never come up
to the vintage.

And as to vintage Borsalino numbering, it has been discussed
here many times. I have never been able to figure out from
what has been posted if there was a reliable system that we
can understand today. Have a look at some of the old posts:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=13515

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=14237

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=12124

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=10489

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=8068

...and probably many others...

In that last thread Besdor states, "Borsalino did date their hats
from 1974 to 1986 and again from 1994 to the present", but doesn't
explain on what he bases that assertion. Unfortunately, even if it
is true and if we understood the system, that spotty dating system
wouldn't really help us much.

Feltfan - I do agree that my modern Borsos are nothing like the few vintage Borsos I have recenlty purchased. The vintage hats are superior in quality and, IMHO style. I can't wait to see the new lightweight. It may be a while before I learn how well they hold up in comparison to the modern hats. I do have my great uncles old Habig fedora and tyrolean and those are in great shape but rarely worn.

Do you find that you wear your vintage hats more often than anything else? When the weather is particularly bad, so far, I opt for the modern hats because they can be replaced.

BTW - After buying my first custom hat from Art I'm not likely to buy another new Borso unless it's pre 1960s.

 

[vonwotan]

Felftfan - Thank you. I agree on style. I am a big fan of the clothing and hats seen in Apparel Arts, in photos of the '20s and 30's and of the Edwardian period. There were so many more possibilities. My impression is that the majority of the modern fedoras (I'll leave out triblys, porkpies, etc. for this discussion) seem to have one basic shape with differences only in how they are blocked, the width of the brim, and the ribbon. But, if you were to steam them open and remove their ribbons, many models would be essentially the same.

The answer seems to be that I need to take the leap and start wearing my vintage hats more often and not leaving them only for the good weather. I'll need to take baby steps, one or two candidates come to mind. However, it may be a while before I have the courage to wear a couple of the vintage Borsalinos and my new Art Fawcett creation in foul weather.

Maybe off topic, or just a more general question - from what I have read on the FL it seems that all felt is of lesser quality these days due to changes in the manufacturing process. And, it sounds like there may only be one or two really good suppliers of hat bodies? If we separate the discussion of vintage vs. modern, are there any modern makers (commercial not custom) who's felt is of superior quality? And, what changes in particular have casued the quality of felt to decline?

 

[feltfan]

My impression is that the majority of the modern fedoras (I'll leave out triblys, porkpies, etc. for this discussion) seem to have one basic shape with differences only in how they are blocked, the width of the brim, and the ribbon. But, if you were to steam them open and remove their ribbons, many models would be essentially the same.

The funny thing is, those small differences make so much
visual impact. I do know what you mean by the overall
similarity of fedoras. But it's odd how 1/4 inch of brim or
the height of a ribbon can change how a hat looks on a guy.

I do have bowlers, a variety of Western styles, homburgs, etc,
though, for variety.

But to get back to your point, production fedoras appear to
be stamped out on molds, rather than hand blocked. The
blocks used now are almost uniformly narrow little C-crowns,
designed, I suppose, to make use of the tiny real estate left
at the top of a tapered crown. The dents look pressed in by
a badly designed machine. Give me hand bashing every time
over this mass production crap.

The answer seems to be that I need to take the leap and start wearing my vintage hats more often and not leaving them only for the good weather. I'll need to take baby steps, one or two candidates come to mind. However, it may be a while before I have the courage to wear a couple of the vintage Borsalinos and my new Art Fawcett creation in foul weather.

As we have discussed many times, you're much better off
in bad weather with your vintage. And since Art's hats have
been tornado tested (see:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=14391),
you have nothing to fear.

Maybe off topic, or just a more general question - from what I have read on the FL it seems that all felt is of lesser quality these days due to changes in the manufacturing process. And, it sounds like there may only be one or two really good suppliers of hat bodies? If we separate the discussion of vintage vs. modern, are there any modern makers (commercial not custom) who's felt is of superior quality? And, what changes in particular have casued the quality of felt to decline?

This is a book that has not yet been written.
Sounds like you're already familiar with at least one
of the better hat makers.

The short answer to your question is decline in demand.
How do you keep alive an industry with skilled fur pickers,
specialized machinery, and highly skilled hatters, if no one
is buying good hats? Hopefully this is changing...

 

[jeboat]

Modern vs Vintage Borsies

I own several Borsalinos and find that the "old" ones have a lighter felt yet feel substantial and are easy to bash if they get wet, sat on, etc. The modern ones I have are nice hats but definitely not the same quality, for example the feel of the felt, the narrower leather sweats and general appearance.

I looked at Borsies in Italy at an upscale hat store in Montecantini 2 years ago. Like everything else in Italian clothing they were very expensive and the ones they had did not have the same quality as a couple I bought on an online auction that are about 10 years old.

That said, I do like the styling of Borsalino hats but I would rather get Art or Fedora to make a clone than to spend too much on an inferior lid.

jeboat

 

[Joel Tunnah]

When an FL member with the taste and experience of analogist says that modern Borsalino are nice dress hats, I take notice.

Joel