Public derision

[Alan Eardley]

In the same week that the Church of England has advise its Vicars not to wear their clerical ('dog') collars in public because of they are said to provoke attacks from teenage 'yobs', here is an item about the similar treatment of moustaches from our daily news:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=487118&in_page_id=1770

While I don't condone this man's actions in retaliating to such provocation, personally I'm sick of receiving abuse from young people just because I dress differently. An example? On a train last week my black Homburg hat was the subject of some thirty minutes of derision from two (obviously drunken) teenagers, one of whom was wearing a baseball cap (peak forwards) with a woollen 'jeep cap' on top of it (peak sideways). I 'kept my cool', but do we really have to put up with this sort of thing?

Alan

 

[Feraud]

Conformity seems to be the order of the day.

Adults should not put up with nonsense from children.
The kid in the article got the much needed kicking he deserved.

 

[BeBopBaby]

Conformity seems to be the order of the day.

Adults should not put up with nonsense from children.
The kid in the article got the much needed kicking he deserved.

I agree and I admire you for taking the high road and turning your cheek to them. I would have crumbled under the pressure and probably would have pointed and laughed at them and called them tools in response because I'm mean and cranky. lol

 

[PADDY]

Actually Alan, you are a much bigger man than me.

In that you had the balls and the high groundedness to just take it. I think that takes much more self control and nerve than to lash out either physically or verbally as a knee-jerk reaction.

I'm not convinced that I would have that self control and dare say would be like that chap with the moustache (although he seems to have a certain history behind him too). But these yobs seem to play on the fact that the odds are there will be no punishment or come-back from their actions [huh]

I'm going to walk away from this one right now, before I say something that gets me into hot water...:rage:

 

[Son_of_Atropos]

When you wear that out in public, you will be subjected to ridicule. It's a fact of life, deal with it. You can't seriously expect that no one will laugh or joke about it. If all that the boys said were nice stache where did you get it, then his reaction was unreasonable.

words alone can not elicit such a response.

 

[Alan Eardley]

When you wear that out in public, you will be subjected to ridicule. It's a fact of life, deal with it. You can't seriously expect that no one will laugh or joke about it. If all that the boys said were nice stache where did you get it, then his reaction was unreasonable.

words alone can not elicit such a response.

I assume you are referring to the man with the ridiculous moustache. In that case, I agree. I have said that I don't condone his reaction. The incident that caused his reaction was mild enough, but it was (according the the man himself) the culmination of a number of such incidents (read the article).

Now, let's get on to the Vicars' collars and my plain black Homburg. Are you suggesting that Vicars should expect to be attacked because they wear a clerical collar or that old men should have put up with derision on trains from youths in ridiculous headgear because they wear traditional hats? Do you expect us 'to deal with that' as a fact of life? Not my life, buddy.

Alan

 

[Kishtu]

I've said elsewhere that I really do feel at times that there's a backlash against people who are "different" - that by dressing differently and behaving differently they/we are understood to be making an anti-establishment statement. Why do you have to be different? why are you not content to be the same as everyone else?

In this guy's case I have my doubts that his reaction was... less than extreme, let's say. On the other hand I think it's the flip side of the cult of celebrity, that if you are "other" then you are by definition seen to be seeking attention and you're expected to put up with attention, positive or negative. "Asking for it" being a phrase that springs to mind.

Easy to say after the event but I think he over-reacted wildly. The first thign that springs to my mind as a response to "nice tache where'd you get it?" would be, come back when you've grown up dear and you might be able to grow your own!

 

[Edward]

As to the guy in the Mail article.... hard to know what happened there. Seems he snapped rather more quickly than justifiable, if all there was was that one comment, though it sounds like he had a history. Then he also sounds much more eccentric in his dress than even any of us - referring to the photo, that's blue tones in the shirt, brown jacket, and according to the article bright red trousers..... along with that 'tache..... It doesn't excuse any rude comments he gets, but I think realistically you have to expect that that sort of outfit will attract them...

I lean to the view that if one is going to dress in a manner significantly different than the norm, one has to expect that there will be those who feel threatened by that difference, and consequently feel the need to make abusive comments. That should never stop any of us from being who we are, though i find that to a certain degree expecting a bit of folks shouting things usually makes it easier to deal with. A lot depends on the instance.... If I think I can get away with it, I have been know to come back with the odd smart answer - "Well, it's Saturday night, one of us had to make an effort," Where'd you get that hat? "The last kid who took the piss was wearing it." And on. Usually, though, it's best just to ignore them - I find they give up and move on a lot faster if they think they're not getting a reaction. Realistically too, while often these days kids are just being kids who don't know any better, some of them are also looking for a fight. If it wasn't your hat, it'd be "you're fat!", "you're bald!" or whatever. Some kids started on a bunch of us in Manchester last year... obviouslt Chatsworth Estate types with nothing better to do on a Sunday afternoon. Once they realised we were out of spitting distance, on came the verbal. "Oi, mister - you, baldy....are you a gay?" I couldn't resist, and I said " ' Are you a gay?' Is that really the best you can do? I mean, really? What's education come to in this country? Are you a gay?" Tut. Momentary silence. "are you a Nazi? I don't allow Nazis on my estate." We're dealing with an original thinker here - "not a gay, therefore a Nazi..." [huh] Fiftenn minutes later, though, when they realised they'd get no further response from any of us, even eye contact, they went away. I kinda thing they might have disappeared sooner if I'd not reacted at all. Where I should think it harder to know how to react would be if they started on a lady - I'll take a lot of insulting before I'll rise to it usually, but, you know....


Thing is, getting into a scrap with a bunch of fifteen year olds is a no win situation - if you come off better, you look like the big Bad Man (and inevitably that type always have a whole family of elder brothers or whatever who they'll set on you like a junkyard dawg...), if you come of worse..... well, it doesn't matter a fifteen year old is that much smaller if there's a whole gang of them, especially not if they're carrying knives or anything along those lines. It's unfortunate, but you've got to think defensively these days. Jack Straw is, frankly, an idiot for encouraging people to "have a go" in this day and age; hopefully he won't end up with blood on his hands as a result of that.

ETA: Not to be wholly negative, I've found in the current climate that at least as many folks tend to have something positive to say.

 

[PADDY]

"Did you mention my moustache and cap sonny...? Boverred??" (photos)

Just to lighten this (as it is a dark topic and very personal too when you think about it in challenging what we feel we can do freely and without danger of attack in terms of our dress and self expression in public)

"Well sonny you'll know next time not to bring a foul mouth and bad attitude to a gun fight, so here starteth your lesson in manners!!"

"So you think 'our hats' look funny? Well not as funny as yours once we've sorted out some ventilation for them!!"

 

[Kishtu]

Talk to the baseball bat, 'cos the hat ain't listening?

 

[Edward]

As sayeth the philosopher Joseph Ramone...

"...Beat on the brat with a baseball bat, oh yeah..."

 

[BeBopBaby]

I guess I'm lucky, people don't bother me as much. Part of it, I believe, is that I'm female and people tend not to mess with women as much. But, my husband tells me that I give off a very strong "don't mess with me" vibe. He laughs because when we go to the grocery store, people apologize and move out of my way when I go down the aisles. Then my husband has to remind me that I'm doing it again and I realize I'm scowling at people unconsciously. I really have to make an effort not to do that sometimes.

And I don't actually scowl at the people, I'm usually doing it because my mind is 100 miles away and I'm deep in thought about something or other. I tend to look very serious when I do that and I don't realize it. A lot of people mistake it for meaness, but really I'm just a very internalized person that tends to not notice what's going on around me sometimes.

Oh, and having a freakishly gigantic older brother as I was growing up didn't hurt either. lol

 

[BeBopBaby]

As sayeth the philosopher Joseph Ramone...

"...Beat on the brat with a baseball bat, oh yeah..."

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
Edward - I'm trying to not laugh out loud and draw attention to myself at work right now!!!!

 

[Alan Eardley]

I really must caution against any form of self defence using what may be construed as a weapon in the UK. I make sticks as a hobby and collect vintage ones. As a 'knobstick' was a traditional man's accessory and item of self protection in what I regard as 'The Golden Age' I sometimes carry a shilelagh or 'knobkerry', but I have no illusions that any attempt on my part to use it in self defence (even with what most of us would regard as extreme provocation) would result in prosecution (of me, not my tormentors).

In the 1920s my father (over six feet one, at a time when that was huge) and fiery ginger haired, was confronted by a group of layabouts who derided him for his spats. He took off his jacket and laid out three of them with his fists. Meanwhile the police had been summoned. The 'Bobby' on arriving quickly at the scene, appraised the situation and promptly asked Dad if he had considered joining the police force! I can't imagine that happening today.

In spite of Jack Straw's mouthings, self-defence is a no-no.

Alan

Talk to the baseball bat, 'cos the hat ain't listening?

 

[jake431]

 

[Kishtu]

I really must caution against any form of self defence using what may be construed as a weapon in the UK. I make sticks as a hobby and collect vintage ones. As a 'knobstick' was a traditional man's accessory and item of self protection in what I regard as 'The Golden Age' I sometimes carry a shilelagh or 'knobkerry', but I have no illusions that any attempt on my part to use it in self defence (even with what most of us would regard as extreme provocation) would result in prosecution (of me, not my tormentors)

Alan, have no fear, for I find baseball bats very difficult to accessorise but I do have a dmnably big handbag! - normally filled with the odd box of cat food, pint of milk - not something you'd want a ding round the ear with lol

I will share a little story here which may make some of you laugh. My ex, a gay man who was also a cross-dresser (oh it's a very long story, don't ask) used to fancy himself as a bit of a hard man on the old goth scene. Used to take great exception to people who laughed at him or stared and get quite aggressive. He managed to get himself a little crew of like-minded souls together. One day whilst passing a stall on the market he saw a t shirt that read "You laugh at me because I'm different. I laugh at you because you're all the same."

Hey guys, he said, turning to his crew. What a cool t shirt. Let's all get one! :eusa_doh:

I think that just about sums it up for me....

 

[scotrace]

The revenge comes in the quiet knowledge that the deriding person, and likely, his or her descendants, will be serving chips and scrubbing toilets for you and your descendants until someone from their gene pool decides to swim out of the shallow end.

 

[BeBopBaby]

The revenge comes in the quiet knowledge that the deriding person, and likely, his or her descendants, will be serving chips and scrubbing toilets for you and your descendants until someone from their gene pool decides to swim out of the shallow end.

Not if those deriding people people keep breeding at the rate they are. They may rule the world eventually!

 

[Edward]

Hey guys, he said, turning to his crew. What a cool t shirt. Let's all get one! :eusa_doh:

I think that just about sums it up for me....

To do that in a knowing, ironic manner might be amusing, but yeah.... otherwise it's a lot like the little kids I see in neatly printed, mass-manufactured "Anarchy" T-shirts, or the capitalist profiteering of images of Mao, Lenin and Guevara, etc. lol

I've seen a great T shirt with Che Guevara with Mickey Mouse ears, wish i could find that in shops....

Alan is of course entirely correct that the law on self-defence in the UK is quite a stringent one (and I think necessarily so). The bottom line is that you are entitled to respond with reasonable force. If surrounded by a whole gang of kids thumping you, I should think lashing out with a stick would be reasonable - and the law does of course make allowance to some degree for the "heat of the moment." Brandishing a knife would be a different matter.... guns don't really enter into it given the probability that if a civilian in the UK is carrying a gun, they are most likely already in breach of the law. Some folks would have you believe that we have no entitlement to self defence - this is not true. That line of argument makes much of the conviction of Tony Martin, the farmer who shot and killed a young burglar who had broken in to his home. This case came down to the issue of reasonableness of force used: Martin fired his (actually illegally held, as I recall) shotgun at the intruder's back as he was running away - it was therefore not considered to be self defence, as he was not subject to attack at that moment. I suspect had he thrown half a brick it wouldn't have been an issue, but the use of lethal force was what did for him there. (In any case, on medical grounds his conviction was later lowered to manslaughter).

I tend to think I'd be hopeless in a fist fight - it's been over eighteen years since I last swung a punch at someone else, and I'm really quite weedy and unfit - but it could be surprising the damage any one of us could inflict on someone else if backed into a corner when the survival instinct takes over. Being prepared to fight dirty (teeth, nails, hit below the belt...) also counts for a lot in that sort of situation.

 

[dakotanorth]

Latecomer to the discussion

Maybe he shouldn't wear his hat if people don't like it. Then again, most people don't like books so many we should burn all of them. :rage: Then we can have a group of people walk the streets and harass others who "Just don't look right." Then we can take all these "Different" people and put them in a special part of town....

I've been laughed at in public- I mean LAUGHED OUT LOUD and POINTED at me. This was from guys wearing head-to-toe "Starter" wear, yet I looked ridiculous.

This stuff just infuriates me. People being "sucker mobbed" into comformity. The _true_ irony is, it always comes from people that are complete victims of pop culture, mass consumption, etc. It's like somehow, by rejecting their lifestyle, you criticize them. I believe the whole theory that "Anti-Intellectualism" has been growing.
This post struck a serious nerve with me....