Prices: Then and now

[reetpleat]

I did not say that the workers did not exist, I said that they did not exist at a low cost. The low cost part is essential. For middle-class America to afford the use of labor-intensive goods and services, the cost has to be relatively low. 100 years ago, hand tailoring and domestic service were not considered the luxuries they are not precisely because their cost was not out of reach of ordinary middle-class families. Can you imagine a modern American middle-class family with one or more full-time live-in servants, and with all their clothes custom made by a tailor?

Well, you are right about that.

I guess the question is weather we are willing to live in a society with such a split between the have and have nots.

Of course, this is just a myth. We do live in such a world.

In this country many people do have domestics in and out, because ofthe large pool of mostly undocumented workers living in substandrd conditions. Further, and pertinent to this thread, is we rely on large class of people in foreign countries to live under substandard conditions, so we can have our cheap manufactured goods.

Nothing has changed except the geographical scale.

 

[carebear]

Well, you are right about that.

I guess the question is weather we are willing to live in a society with such a split between the have and have nots.

Of course, this is just a myth. We do live in such a world.

In this country many people do have domestics in and out, because ofthe large pool of mostly undocumented workers living in substandrd conditions. Further, and pertinent to this thread, is we rely on large class of people in foreign countries to live under substandard conditions, so we can have our cheap manufactured goods.

Nothing has changed except the geographical scale.

Substandard by our standards, not necessarily theirs. The conditions in some places may be horrific, and some factories we rightly call sweatshops, but in many third world countries people fight for the comparatively high wages being paid.

Controlled for cost of living, earning pennies an hour may be the best thing to ever happen to you, if everyone else is scratching for roots because they don't have a job at all.

I'm in no way in favor of illegal immigration, but remember that the illegal worker earning that "substandard" wage fought long and hard to get here to earn it. At least as long and hard as, say, my legal immigrant ancestors fought to get to this country to live and work in those same "substandard" conditions doing the same dangerous menial work.

We may look down our noses at those conditions but for most of the world it's a huge step up.

 

[Tourbillion]

I did not say that the workers did not exist, I said that they did not exist at a low cost. The low cost part is essential. For middle-class America to afford the use of labor-intensive goods and services, the cost has to be relatively low. 100 years ago, hand tailoring and domestic service were not considered the luxuries they are not precisely because their cost was not out of reach of ordinary middle-class families. Can you imagine a modern American middle-class family with one or more full-time live-in servants, and with all their clothes custom made by a tailor?

The only reason you could have live in servants 100 years ago is that there were homeless 12-14 year olds who needed room and board. Or, homeless adults with no skills or education, who needed room and board, which was a large part of their salary.

A tailor made okay money (but probably wasn't rich), but a ladies dressmaker was very low wage and was it was considered a gateway job to prostitution.

The good old days just weren't that good unless you belonged to the elite.

 

[Twitch]

If you go to Mexico and other Central and South America Latin countries you will still find rural young women that will take domestic jobs in the big cities for families. Most of these families are not rich by any means but they can afford a person to help them around the house due to the disparity of even the middle class to the realtively poor class.

And the fact that several thousand home grown Americans apply for 50minimum wage jobs at a forthcoming Wal-mart indicates that the BS about illegals taking low paying jobs Americans don't want is a falsehood.

 

[reetpleat]

Substandard by our standards, not necessarily theirs. The conditions in some places may be horrific, and some factories we rightly call sweatshops, but in many third world countries people fight for the comparatively high wages being paid.

Controlled for cost of living, earning pennies an hour may be the best thing to ever happen to you, if everyone else is scratching for roots because they don't have a job at all.



Well, certainly they are living better than the past, and bettr than 90 percent of the human population throughout time perhaps.

But we should not forget that our standard f living is based on these conditons in other parts of the world and even in our own country.

So the question is, are we williing to overlook this, or are we ready to say these conditions are not acceptable for anyone in the world and we need to do something about it. The fact that it is now often in the other side of the world makes it even easier to maintain our lifestyle and ignore the rest of the worlds living conditions.

Also, don't forget that often conditions in these other countries is due in some part to previous european and american colonialism and interference in their economy, and that wages in factories are often lower than the going rate, yet due to lack of jobs people are forced to take them. If the choice is between taking a crap job for crap wages and starving, i will forgive them for only being a little grateful.

 

[reetpleat]

If you go to Mexico and other Central and South America Latin countries you will still find rural young women that will take domestic jobs in the big cities for families. Most of these families are not rich by any means but they can afford a person to help them around the house due to the disparity of even the middle class to the realtively poor class.

And the fact that several thousand home grown Americans apply for 50minimum wage jobs at a forthcoming Wal-mart indicates that the BS about illegals taking low paying jobs Americans don't want is a falsehood.

True, but don't make the mistake of blaming illegals aliens. The fault lies in outsourced jobs, and large corporations shutting down local economies and only offering minimum wage jobs.

 

[carebear]

Well, certainly they are living better than the past, and bettr than 90 percent of the human population throughout time perhaps.

But we should not forget that our standard f living is based on these conditons in other parts of the world and even in our own country.

So the question is, are we williing to overlook this, or are we ready to say these conditions are not acceptable for anyone in the world and we need to do something about it. The fact that it is now often in the other side of the world makes it even easier to maintain our lifestyle and ignore the rest of the worlds living conditions.

Also, don't forget that often conditions in these other countries is due in some part to previous european and american colonialism and interference in their economy, and that wages in factories are often lower than the going rate, yet due to lack of jobs people are forced to take them. If the choice is between taking a crap job for crap wages and starving, i will forgive them for only being a little grateful.

You cannot project one nation's standards onto another. It is the responsibility of the individuals in those countrys to ensure their own success. It is not accurate to blame the failures of third world economies on "colonialism", especially now decades at least after the fact. There are many post-colonial countrys doing quite well. Individuals and their own societal structures (primarily tribalism and then the seeming incessant move toward socialism) bear most of the blame for a failure to advance both economically and in terms of social justice.

Our success has nothing to do with their failure, success is not a zero-sum game. There is plenty of wealth to go around, wealth expands, it is not fixed. Any individual or nation is capable of improving themselves with the right mindset. We aren't responsible for their failures. To claim it is up to us to somehow uplift the third world is not only economic nonsense it is also stark racism, a modern "white man's burden".

 

[Twitch]

Reepleat I was responding to Vladimir's mention of domestic servants 100 years ago and pointing out that in many parts of the world there are still many today. India, Asia. Africa, Latin America all have a pool of folks willing to do domestic work due to the disparity of those area's wealth.

Carebear has it right. It is just wrong to project one country's value system onto another. Cultural differences and social mores can't be changed simply because someone in a foreign land believes they should.

I find the same flawed logic in history when people project back with today's prejudices and points of view and damn those who have gone before us. Crying about past injustices in history over the span of decades or centuries is as silly as attempting to try to tell people of India to eat cows.

What WE call a lousey job is completely in error when applied to other nations and cultures. Someone working for $8 a day in Pakistan may be doing quite well. It's all relative to the culture and econimic conditions existing now regardless of what or who caused them. Simply because people don't have an I-Pod or cell phone plugged in the damned ear 24/7 doesn't mean they are dumb or low class.

 

[Haversack]

Another factor in some relativley higher prices between now and then is due to a shrinking supply of raw material in relation to a larger population. Take for example the quality of construction lumber. Stuff that routinely gets used today would have been discarded or used for utility purposes even 30 years ago.

Haversack.

 

[carebear]

Good point Haversack. Some of the prettiest oak I've seen in a long time was in a pallet I pulled out of a '40's era warehouse.

Made a pretty stock.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

Another factor in some relativley higher prices between now and then is due to a shrinking supply of raw material in relation to a larger population. Take for example the quality of construction lumber. Stuff that routinely gets used today would have been discarded or used for utility purposes even 30 years ago.

Haversack.

I think that the lumber shortage of today was largely a result of that hurricane that destroyed so many homes in Florida in the early 90s. Hurricane Andrew was it? I don't rightly recall the name, but I do remember a huge increase in the cost of wood as a result of the demand for construction materials to rebuild. As a result, things made of real honest to goodness wood are very expensive today, and probably will be for a long, long time to come.

 

[carebear]

Due to the low interest rates we've had a massive increase in spec construction the past few years. Also, though I don't have a cite, the Chinese have been building like crazy. Prices are up and inventories are down across the board.

Plywood, cement, steel. Everything. Cost of construction is stupid high.

 

[Lincsong]

If you put things into a hourly wage perspective it tends to help out. Say in 1935 a pair of shoes at Montgomery Wards cost $4.50. These shoes were made of leather and had a steel piece of metal on the arch support. Today, if you go to Sears you pay $60 for a rubber soled shoe with leather uppers and a piece of plastic on the arch support. So the average wage was .65 an hour in 1935. (Minimum wage was just started at .25 a hour) It took about 7 hours of work to buy that $4.50 shoe. What's the average wage today? Let's say $15 an hour ($30K a year) It takes 4 hours to buy the more poorly made $60 shoe at Sears. To find a shoe made with the same quality as the 1935 shoe; leather soles and uppers, steel shaft a consumer would have to look at probably at Allen Edmonds at Nordstrom's and those shoes would run about $300 which equals 20 hours of work. Add into that price sales tax (1935 California about 2% today around 7%-9%) then deduct income taxes and the same quality shoes (1935) if bought as made today were cheaper in 1935.

Just a slightly off topic mention. My grandmother was a domestic who worked for several families. She cleaned 1-2 houses a day six days a week. Her and my grandfather were able to own their house in California. She never considered it menial. She was a clean freak and loved to clean, plus she was known as the "General" and probably couldn't work for anyone. There's no shame in doing a job, the shame is not doing any job.

 

[Twitch]

Hey forget the materials. The danged DIRT you want to build on costs up the gege! You could torch you domicile and collect more that the structure is worth due the cost of the lot alone.:eusa_doh:

 

[Travis]

What's the average wage today? Let's say $15 an hour ($30K a year)

I don't know what the actual average wage is, but I'd guess if it's $15/hr. the average is only that high because there are people that make a LOT more than that, bringing the average up. I don't tend to complain about the prices of things a lot because I know that if I want something quality that looks good, I have to work hard and save up money to buy it. But the fact of the matter is, I don't think I know anybody, and if I do, the number of people is very low, that make $15/hr. I make $9.25/hr. and this is the second highest paying job I've ever had. Back in 2001 I had a job making $10/hr. Minimum wage was lower and I felt rich, I made more money than anybody I knew. Maybe I just think people make less than they do because I've never really been around the well-to-do. But like I said, that doesn't stop me from trying to look sharp and buying quality items, it just sometimes means that in order to do so I have to save up money and maybe go a week or two without food.

 

[reetpleat]

I don't know what the actual average wage is, but I'd guess if it's $15/hr. the average is only that high because there are people that make a LOT more than that, bringing the average up. I don't tend to complain about the prices of things a lot because I know that if I want something quality that looks good, I have to work hard and save up money to buy it. But the fact of the matter is, I don't think I know anybody, and if I do, the number of people is very low, that make $15/hr. I make $9.25/hr. and this is the second highest paying job I've ever had. Back in 2001 I had a job making $10/hr. Minimum wage was lower and I felt rich, I made more money than anybody I knew. Maybe I just think people make less than they do because I've never really been around the well-to-do. But like I said, that doesn't stop me from trying to look sharp and buying quality items, it just sometimes means that in order to do so I have to save up money and maybe go a week or two without food.

Well, I know in Portland unemployment is high and wages are low. When I was younger I nor any of my friends made much money. But it doesn't take muc hof a shift ot all of a sudden be in circles of people that make a lot more than ten bucks an hour. And I am not talking about people making millions.

I don't really know how much zI make a year let alone how much I make an hour. But I know it is better than before, and I know I will make more in the future.

But the point is it is so relative.