Powder room Finishing School

[Viola]

My dad gave me my table manners and my social anxiety gave me my constant politeness! Although I appreciate polite, neat people, I don't think anyone (ladies especially, since we already have a tendency to do it) should sacrifice their own personality to achieve some ultimate level of "social grace".

I love vintage fashion, style, and some of the attitudes, but not everything. When I look at things like how women were trained to act in public in the past, I much prefer the screeching, clomping women of today. At least they are being genuine. All some people need to learn is a little respect for others when out in public -- not a lesson in how to be a Stepford wife.

-- PS. I'm not trying to say that any of you ladies are advocating the zombification of today's young ladies & women, but it's just something I think a lot of women don't realize that things like finishing schools etc, can be society's tools for keeping women quiet and subjugated. Just a thought from your token feminist!

I'm not sure genuine is always better or that the freedom to be rude should be exercised. Sometimes, in the public at large, I'd like to see less personality and more concern for others. [huh]

I'm sure everyone's grateful they're not always seeing the real (easily irritated, horribly Goodfella-style foul-mouthed) me.

Viola

 

[pigeon toe]

I'm not sure genuine is always better or that the freedom to be rude should be exercised. Sometimes, in the public at large, I'd like to see less personality and more concern for others. [huh]

I'm sure everyone's grateful they're not always seeing the real (easily irritated, horribly Goodfella-style foul-mouthed) me.

Viola

I completely agree, I feel everyone needs a little lesson in politeness and respect for others these days. However, as long as someone has those qualities, that's good enough for me. However, I don't think every woman should be a carbon copy "Miss Manners" type of woman if that isn't who they are naturally.

 

[Elaina]

I agree with you pigeon toe, but there is a fine line in being familiar to having no manners whatsoever. Case in point: I went out to lunch today with a friend of mine. We both smoke, were in a smoking section and the smoke was bothering a non-smoking woman that was in non-smoking, but my friends cigarettes were too strong, and me added to it just made it worse. The lady politely asked us if we would mind waiting about 10 minutes until she left. I replied "Oh my! I'm so sorry! Of course" and put it out. My friend called her a bitch and refused. (Friend and I also got into it after). She then talked with her mouth open while eating, gobbled down sodas faster then the server could keep up and was just..ew.

My friend's manners embarassed me, made someone else feel bad for being nice instead of rude, and that is where the problem lies. If it was at my house, it might be a little different (she'd still have bad manners).

 

[pigeon toe]

I agree with you pigeon toe, but there is a fine line in being familiar to having no manners whatsoever. Case in point: I went out to lunch today with a friend of mine. We both smoke, were in a smoking section and the smoke was bothering a non-smoking woman that was in non-smoking, but my friends cigarettes were too strong, and me added to it just made it worse. The lady politely asked us if we would mind waiting about 10 minutes until she left. I replied "Oh my! I'm so sorry! Of course" and put it out. My friend called her a bitch and refused. (Friend and I also got into it after). She then talked with her mouth open while eating, gobbled down sodas faster then the server could keep up and was just..ew.

My friend's manners embarassed me, made someone else feel bad for being nice instead of rude, and that is where the problem lies. If it was at my house, it might be a little different (she'd still have bad manners).

That's terrible! I'm a non-smoker, but my boyfriend and lots of my friends smoke, and I've never seen any of them be that rude. That's totally out of line, and unfortunately, something I see a lot of today.

People are so quick to be impatient with others nowadays. It's such selfish behavior.

 

[katiemakeup]

Remember when Lucy & Ethel went to charm school?
They went from this

To this

lol

 

[ShrinkingViolet]

My dad gave me my table manners and my social anxiety gave me my constant politeness! Although I appreciate polite, neat people, I don't think anyone (ladies especially, since we already have a tendency to do it) should sacrifice their own personality to achieve some ultimate level of "social grace".

I love vintage fashion, style, and some of the attitudes, but not everything. When I look at things like how women were trained to act in public in the past, I much prefer the screeching, clomping women of today. At least they are being genuine. All some people need to learn is a little respect for others when out in public -- not a lesson in how to be a Stepford wife.

-- PS. I'm not trying to say that any of you ladies are advocating the zombification of today's young ladies & women, but it's just something I think a lot of women don't realize that things like finishing schools etc, can be society's tools for keeping women quiet and subjugated. Just a thought from your token feminist!

I totally agree with you, in that there's a difference between acting decently and respectfully as a -person- towards other people no matter what gender you are, and just internalizing the dutiful and conscentious behavior as a -woman- that the majority of little girls are raised with. There should be as many different ways of being a woman as there are women ...

 

[BettyValentine]

I totally agree with you, in that there's a difference between acting decently and respectfully as a -person- towards other people no matter what gender you are, and just internalizing the dutiful and conscentious behavior as a -woman- that the majority of little girls are raised with. There should be as many different ways of being a woman as there are women ...

I love you and agree with you and you have a *fabulous* avatar!

 

[Miss Dottie]

Remember when Lucy & Ethel went to charm school?
They went from this

To this

lol

Hah! That is terrific! Who would have thought Ethel would be the type of leopard print?

 

[BettyValentine]

Hah! That is terrific! Who would have thought Ethyl would be the type of leopard print?

And I can't believe it looks so good on her!

Lucy always looked fabulous. I never noticed when I was small, but I saw some episodes more recently and was like "Oh my god, where did she get those *clothes* if Ricky was just a nightclub entertainer!?" (Before the part where he went off and became a movie star.) She's got the best clothes I've ever seen, and she *really* works the black & white film.

Edit: I'm giving the win to Ethyl this one time, because I just noticed Lucy's water wings.

 

[katiemakeup]

fftopic:
I agree! Ethel is working that dress! And for once, her figure is revealed as svelte and not dumpy like Lucy always had her dress.

 

[Miss Dottie]

I also love that Ethel is working out wearing what look to be a pair of moccasins!

And did you notice the arm jewelry on the old girl. Spectacular!

 

[pigeon toe]

I totally agree with you, in that there's a difference between acting decently and respectfully as a -person- towards other people no matter what gender you are, and just internalizing the dutiful and conscentious behavior as a -woman- that the majority of little girls are raised with. There should be as many different ways of being a woman as there are women ...

Exactly! You say it much more concisely than I ever could. Wanna write my women's studies paper?

 

[katiepickle]

This would make (gracefully) getting out of the car easy for everyone!

 

[TOTTIE]

If anyone wants to know about finishing school I highly recommend Debs At War. It's one of the best books I've read in ages - all about what upper class young women got up to during WWII.

It also gives lots of info on being a Debutante and finishing school etc (half of them were still being packed off to finishing school in Nazi Germany just before the war). It seems that most of them had already learnt their manners... so in fact finishing school was about introducing them to more social life and, crucially, they were expected to become fluent in at least one, preferably two foreign languages. How they did that was up to them - so, plenty of cultural events, opera, visits to galleries etc.

Apparently finishing school teachers were often aristocratic continental ladies fallen on hard times who 'took in' a number of English girls as a bit of extra income.

SUCH a fantastic book though.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Debs-at-War-Anne-Courcy/dp/0753820781

 

[Miss Dottie]

Wow! Those sound like amazing books--I just added them to my Amazon list.

Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[BettyValentine]

My grandmother was from a Social Register family. She was not, however, a debutante. Her debut was cancelled because of WWII. She says that most of her friends did not come out because such things were "just not done" while there was a war going on.

(This is the same grandma who very much wanted to be a lawyer, but her father said that was inappropriate and said she could choose what she wanted to be so long as it was a nurse or a teacher, so she became a teacher.)

Finishing school has been replaced by the "year abroad," at least for Americans of the socio-economic position that would previously have considered finishing school. I think the change likely occurred because it is no longer considered inappropriate for a 22-year-old unmarried woman to hang out in a foreign country without a chaperone, so the need for a school to act as chaperone pretty much disappeared.

 

[~landgirl~]

If anyone wants to know about finishing school I highly recommend Debs At War. It's one of the best books I've read in ages - all about what upper class young women got up to during WWII.

It also gives lots of info on being a Debutante and finishing school etc (half of them were still being packed off to finishing school in Nazi Germany just before the war). It seems that most of them had already learnt their manners... so in fact finishing school was about introducing them to more social life and, crucially, they were expected to become fluent in at least one, preferably two foreign languages. How they did that was up to them - so, plenty of cultural events, opera, visits to galleries etc.

Apparently finishing school teachers were often aristocratic continental ladies fallen on hard times who 'took in' a number of English girls as a bit of extra income.

SUCH a fantastic book though.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Debs-at-War-Anne-Courcy/dp/0753820781

I just bought it on your recommendation! The review looks fab!

 

[shindeco]

If anyone wants to know about finishing school I highly recommend Debs At War. It's one of the best books I've read in ages - all about what upper class young women got up to during WWII.

I
SUCH a fantastic book though.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Debs-at-War-Anne-Courcy/dp/0753820781

I actually just saw this book in the bookstore the other day! I thought it looked great but didn't buy it (too close to Christmas, you know) but I'll check it out in January!!

 

[TOTTIE]

I'm sure you'll love it. One woman recounts how she used to get the underground straight from her factory job to drinks at the Ritz then dancing at the 400 club -- all in her brown factory overalls.

Also some extraordinary accounts of just how little these young women knew about, ahem, intimate relations. One, who was an ATS officer, failed to deal properly with the alleged rape of one of her girls, because she simply didn't know what rape was.

 

[MissHuff]

In researching dining etiquette for a paper I came across this website that has an etiquette book by Emily Post free online and for download. I skimmed a little earlier and read a lot of interesting things I didn't know such as how long a visit to someone's house should be for and what is the proper procedure for sending thank you cards lol. Definitely informative readings for the vintage lady.

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=112459