Pouncing

[TheDane]

I hope you didn't take my thanks to Alan for his encouragement as a slight to you, it wasn't meant as such. I like people who say it like it is. You have given me plenty of very practical advice and I am grateful. I am single-minded and rather obsessive, it takes a lot to put me off.

I didn't read it in that way - absolutely no offence taken. I may not say anything as it is - but I do say things, how I believe they are. There may very well be a difference. I'm not to judge

"Stubbornness" and perseverance are very important human properties, when it comes to learning. And the old cliché: "The only stupid question is the one, that was never asked" is still highly valid.

suitedcboy: We use the same "grit-scale" in most of Europe as you do. In DK we used to have a properitary system, when I was young - but that has changed

 

[bloc]

Felt is not "just felt". You probably buy your felt at a millinery supply, and you should ask the supplier for informations on the properties of the felt - ie. degree of stiffening and degree of pre-pouncing. Hat bodies for millinery-use and for western hats are often stiffened a lot more than bodies for gents' fedoras. Bodies for fedoras are usually stiffened to about 0.5ºBe - sometimes the brim a little more. Ask your supplier. You can't buy felt without that information.

Have just been on the Fepsa website and it is a revelation.... As you so rightly said they offer different finishes, different shapes, different sizes, different amounts of stiffener and different levels of pouncing. I think I have died and gone to felt heaven [angel]

And cheaper too!

 

[GBM]

The rabbit and the beaver, especially the beaver, western hat bodies are far heavier, thicker fur felt than the Tonak rabbit. The western bodies are also extremely stiff. So when you read about pouncing them, it is not at all comparable to the hat bodies you have. The western dress hat bodies are more similar to the Czech hat bodies, but still heavier weight.

 

[bloc]

The rabbit and the beaver, especially the beaver, western hat bodies are far heavier, thicker fur felt than the Tonak rabbit. The western bodies are also extremely stiff. So when you read about pouncing them, it is not at all comparable to the hat bodies you have. The western dress hat bodies are more similar to the Czech hat bodies, but still heavier weight.

Thanks for the information. Are you talking about hat bodies for fedoras or Western hats? From Fepsa I have got a selection of different weights, stiffening, rabbit, beaver and hare. So that I can try them out and see what works best. What sort of weight of felt are you talking about?

 

[TheDane]

For dress fedoras you would want felt appr. 100-150g, stiffened to around 0.5°Be overall. GBM was writing about western bodies, and that is not relevant to the hats, you are making. It also depend on the Fepsa-bodies, you buy. If you buy their special-pounced beavers, they should not be pounced more than rabbits from Tonak

 

[GBM]

Bloc, I am pointing out that if you read about pouncing of Western Hats, you should not apply to same intensity to your fedoras because the fur felt is different. Sorry, I don't have the exact weight, but think work horse vs. dressage horse: there is a big difference, even as each is excellent in its role.

 

[Mark Priest]

For dress fedoras you would want felt appr. 100-150g, stiffened to around 0.5°Be overall. GBM was writing about western bodies, and that is not relevant to the hats, you are making. It also depend on the Fepsa-bodies, you buy. If you buy their special-pounced beavers, they should not be pounced more than rabbits from Tonak

Hi, TheDane! I know this post was from a long-time back, but I was wondering if you could explain the stiffness measurement you mentioned here. What unit of measure is the 0.5 degree Be?

 

[Yahoody]

Given a decent piece of felt there is no need to even go to 1000 grit.

600 to 800 is the norm for an exceptional hat. It also doesn't take hours and hours. I do big western hats on 100% beaver blanks with a 5" brim and a 6" crown and they never take hours and hours..a few hours at most and that is when I am being lazy and going slow.

I suspect you know to only sand in one direction? This is really important.

Yes you can over pounce. That will burn the felt. Easier to burn rabbit than beaver. No big deal, it is easy to fix. And yes the colors will change when you do and you'll end up with a blotchy colored hat. Couple of ways to get the hat back to one color, flaming and oiling. I flame my hats. I generally don't oil. There are reasons for both pros and cons. If I burnt a hat pouncing I'd oil if required to get the blotching out.

No clue on what it takes to make a woman's hat but can tell ya there are no secrets on building a high quality hat for men.

Do yourself a favor.....finish the hat you are working on. Then stick with beaver blanks. The pouncing will be much more consistent and easier...and you'll have a better finish when you are done. Price of the blank won't matter when you are done. Feel free to send me a PM if you have questions. This may help some...

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/making-a-western-hat-by-hand.92987/

 

[Mustang Mike's Hats]

Speaking of oiling or Luring .. I have yet to find a really good clear illustration of luring. While the 1919 Hat Repair Manual, "Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating" gives a good glimpse on luring, (pages 55 & 56) I have yet to figure out the correct weight of "light" ducking material, filled with cotton, nor the proper amount of coconut oil suggested. Not to mention the use of "dull emery paper" if the luring produces a glaze. Thus far, I've steered clear of it due to a lack of comfort level with the process. If anyone has the knowledge to clarify, I'm listening.

 

[Yahoody]

More secrets Mike Baby oil works fine for luring. Put it on sparingly with a no lint cloth. Cosmetic results of the baby oil application are immediate. Only reason I know to Lure is cosmetic. Sure works there to get a consistent color. But never anything I have been interested in to date.

Back to the OP questions.....no clue what a thin rabbit blank might require for pouncing. I know rabbit burns easier while pouncing and I'd suspect a thinner piece of felt would as well. As far as western hat beaver blanks being stiff? That is all relative. Some are, some aren't. Might take some real effort to get a good beaver blank stiff enough to make a suitable western hat.

After wet blocking I am just getting started on the crown of this 100% beaver blank with 400 grit. This is the end result of 10 minutes work. 10 minutes more and I'll be using 600 grit. And I'll stop at 800 grit.



Mind you that is just the felt off the crown @ 400. The "dust" will get less and less as I go to a higher grit sand paper.

 

[Mustang Mike's Hats]

I work with 100% rabbit Western weight a lot and have had no issues pouncing thus far. I was taught that it's just a time and practice thing. Trust me when I say I've screwed up a few working on it.

 

[Yahoody]

Next best answer (Mike's being the best) I have found to pouncing is a good selection of sanding blocks.

 

[steur]

Speaking of oiling or Luring .. I have yet to find a really good clear illustration of luring. While the 1919 Hat Repair Manual, "Scientific Hat Finishing and Renovating" gives a good glimpse on luring, (pages 55 & 56) I have yet to figure out the correct weight of "light" ducking material, filled with cotton, nor the proper amount of coconut oil suggested. Not to mention the use of "dull emery paper" if the luring produces a glaze. Thus far, I've steered clear of it due to a lack of comfort level with the process. If anyone has the knowledge to clarify, I'm listening.

This is a subject I've been trying to get more information on too, but there is precious little to be found. It seems that the kind of grease used was different per hatter and one of those trade secrets not to be shared with anyone. The hatter who renovates my hats told me that coconut oil or coconut grease could be used but does have the risk of causing stains when temperatures get higher than 27 degrees Celcius. Hatters seem to have used various mixes of fats, mineral oils and vegetable based oils as luring fats. Anything wil do really as long as it's a hair product I suppose, so babyoil would be fine too. My hatter uses cotton wool wrapped in a satin cloth as a luring pad. Use a very small amount of the luring oil or fat and apply in straight movements (not circular motions). Glimpses of the luring can be seen in some of the hatting movies on youtube. Based on that it seems to be nothing more than a greasy cloth or pad which seems to be heated for a short moment on a plate and then applied to the hat. Pouncing, brushing and then luring in short succession. Not every hatter seems to do this anymore, but as far as my hatter is concerned it brings out the shine and colour of the felt like nothing else and makes it look like new.

 

[mayserwegener]

Here is some information (translated from German) from a unpublished book written by the last director (still alive) of Ebreichsdorfer (Austria) Filzhutfabrik / S. & J. Fraenkel Wien (closed in 1972). I am not sure there is any other book like this one. I have included the German and I will look into getting a better English translation.

Update 03/14/2018: I made some changes based on feedback from FL poster ErWeSa (Wolfgang). The major change is in bold.

"Smooth hats have a long tradition. They are mainly produced from tame or wild rabbit or from mixtures of both types of hair. Hats made of pure beaver hair are rarely found, and a percentage of beaver hair is added to high-quality felts. Originally, the molded and dry hat was smoothed by hand with the pumice stone, later with sandpaper. Then, by passing over with a piece of fish skin, fine, short hair was brought out to improve gloss and feel. In industrial production, the pre-dressed hats are dressed on automatic head and edge grinding machines by rubbing and greasing. The American trimming additionally uses color powder to improve the hand and look. The powder conceals small defects and gives the hat surface a closed appearance and a pleasant hand. The pigment mixture, which is adapted to the color of the hat, is applied at the end of the friction work and fixed to the surface by gentle greasing and dry-leveled."

"Glatte Hüte haben eine lange Tradition. Sie werden vorwiegend aus Zahm- oder Wildkanin bzw. aus Mischungen beider Haarsorten erzeugt. Hüte aus reinem Biberhaar findet man selten, Anteile von Biberhaar werden hochwertigen Filzen beigemischt. Ursprünglich wurde der angeformte und trockene Hut mit dem Bimsstein, später mit einem Reibpapier von Hand glatt geschliffen. Anschließend wurde durch Überfahren mit einem Stück Fischhaut feines, kurzes Haar hervorgeholt, damit Glanz und Griff verbessert. In der industriellen Fertigung werden die vorgeriebenen Hüte auf automatischen Kopf- und Randreibemaschinen durch Reiben und Fetten zugerichtet. Die amerikanische Zurichte verwendet zusätzlich Farbpuder um Griff und Optik zu verbessern. Der Puder verdeckt kleine Fehler und verleiht der Hutoberfläche ein geschlossenes Aussehen und einen angenehmen Griff. Die auf die Hutfarbe abgestimmte Pigmentmischung wird am Ende der Reibarbeit aufgetragen, durch leichtes Fetten an der Oberfläche fixiert und trocken egalisiert. "

"Greasing or Lubricate
Pouncing / rubbing negatively affects the color look of the hats, they become dull and lustreless. Greasing binds the friction dust remaining in the felt and levels / smooths the surface. The color gets luminosity and a rich look. With light colors, the grease can be dispensed with, sometimes this is even advantageous. For dark colors or blacks, greasing is indispensable. Suitable fatliquors are a number of natural and synthetic oils. Poplar oil and the thick Green Laurel oil that was banned in many countries because of possible allergic skin reactions were widespread. Both oils are dilutable by adding trichlorethylene or Vaseline oil. Rapeseed oil, spindle oils, Vaseline and specially prepared products such as Lorbol** are currently used.

In order to put grease on the hat you first put it on a luring pad (the Schmierballen, if this is the correct translation for a piece of textile that is either folded or filled with e.g. cotton wool in order to get a tight piece of material), which is then heated by holding it close to a hot plate to melt the grease/lubricating agent. Then the hat is brushed with this pad with the nap. After that the hat is wiped again with a piece of soft cloth (the "Brenntuch") that has been warmed on a hot plate (presumably to get rid of any superfluous grease)."

**I searched "Lorbol" but came up empty.

"Fetten oder Schmieren
Reiben beeinflußt die Farboptik der Hüte negativ, sie werden matt und stumpf. Durch das Fetten wird der im Filz verbliebene Reibstaub gebunden und die Oberfläche egalisiert. Die Farbe bekommt Leuchtkraft und ein sattes Aussehen. Bei hellen Farben kann auf das Fetten verzichtet werden, manchmal ist das sogar von Vorteil. Bei dunklen Farben oder Schwarz ist ein Fetten unerläßlich. Als Fettungsmittel kommen eine Reihe natürlicher und synthetischer Öle in Frage. Weit verbreitet war Pappelöl und das dickflüssige grüne Lorbeeröl, das in vielen Ländern wegen möglicher allergischer Hautreaktionen verboten wurde. Beide Öle sind durch Zusatz von Trichloräthylen oder Vaselineöl verdünnbar. Gegenwärtig werden vor allem Rapsöl, Spindelöle, Vaseline und speziell zubereitete Produkte, wie Lorbol, verwendet. Zum Fetten des Hutes streicht man etwas Fettungsmittel auf den Schmierballen, hält diesen an eine heiße Platte, bis er sich etwas erwärmt und das Fett verteilt hat. Nun wird der gesamte Hut nach dem Strich bearbeitet und mit dem Brenntuch, einem auf einer Platte erwärmten weichen Lappen, ausgewischt. "

 

[mayserwegener]

I made some changes to the above post.

 

[Mustang Mike's Hats]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[jmpete]

Hello forum, I was wondering if anyone could tell me what steps if any can be taken to remedy “over pouncing” (burning) a hat body. I foolishly tried pouncing a body in less than ideal lighting and sanded a few places down to the “no nap” stage. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ariahokas]

I'm actually not aware of any sort of "burning" during the pouncing stage. You'd have to press very hard and you'd need a pouncing machine that spun at a very rapid rate to actually burn the fur with friction. Maybe the previous poster meant something else?

Many hatters tout pouncing "by hand", but a pouncing machine (basically a pottery wheel for hats) will produce not only faster results but better results. Of course, your "hand" still does 1/2 the work.

One risk though during pouncing is that you loosen the fur significantly if you use a 400 or less grit sandpaper. A coarse sandpaper will rip the felt to shreds and make the hat impossible to shape. Most bodies from Tonak and Fepsa etc are pre-pounced and stiffened, so they are not really designed to be pounced all over again. A quick once-over with 600-800 grit paper, burning, and grease will give them an excellent finish. If you want to reduce the body weight by pouncing, it's better to simply order a lighter weight felt from the beginning.

One note on luring too. Ironing after greasing while still on the body will produce the results you want. You can read about this in Henry Ermatinger's book.

 

[ariahokas]

Edit: I agree with @Yahoody 1000+ grit sandpaper is utterly useless and will actually produce an uneven texture and shade in the finish. It's just too fine for the fur—besides you singe the final fur bits anyways.

 

[crhIndyfan]

Hi everyone. New to the Forum, and I understand that this is an older thread. But I was wondering if anyone would be able to clarify the direction you would sand the underside of the brim when you pounce a hat body. As I understand it, you sand anti-clockwise for the top side of the hat, crown and brim, but I was wondering whether this would be the same for the underside. I hope this isn't a silly question but if anyone could answer this I would be very appreciative