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[Purplesage]

Why don't you post some photos of your Knox Geldoc I would love to see it.

 

[1mach1]

+1

 

[Geldoc]

Will do.

 

[Purplesage]

Blue Velour Borsalino G. & Fuo

Picked this up not too long ago. First Borsalino I've owned with a white leather sweatband. I'm assuming this is a 40s era hat but it could be older. Maybe someone here can help me out with that. The sweatband says Borsalino Grand Prix Paris 1900 and "Fratelli Cevini, P Borsa 4, Trieste." The city of Trieste is perhaps one of the great unknown of the Alpine country, despite deserving more attention for its broad appeal, its beauty and history. Located in the northeast of Italy and bordering with neighboring Slovenia, this city today represents an excellent opportunity for lovers of cheap travel, nevertheless, wish to discover special places and relatively unknown. I guess I'll have to plan a vacation to Italy!

Trieste Italy

Miramare Castle, Trieste Italy

 

[Miamibruno]

That is one gorgeous Borsalino, PS.

 

[Mr.Astor]

That is a gorgeous hat

 

[Miamibruno]

Just got this today...








Then after a bit of steam and a brush...

 

[Miamibruno]

I know it is probably 40s with the sideways Borsalino on the tag and the smaller red size paper tag (which I thought was only European, but what do I know), but if anyone has a more definitive date, I would appreciate it.

 

[alanfgag]

Lovely hat... Definitive dates and Borsalinos rarely mix. The ovalized paper size tag appeared in hats at least into the 1960s.

The 1940s were tumultuous times for Europe - Italian hats were not being imported during the war. When shipments began again I do not know. Early to mid 1950s is a better guess.

 

[Miamibruno]

Hey, Alan. Thanks. I also heard that the tag with the Borsalino on the side was no longer used after 52 or 53. But as with all hat companies, I would think they would use them till they ran out of them.

 

[alanfgag]

Well, those tags do appear in OPS era hats and at some point they mutated to a version without the logo imprint. It may be like the Donovan song... first there is a logo, then there is no logo, then there is. The plus side of this confusion is that Borsalino made marvelous hats in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s. American hats became much less marvelous during the same time span.

 

[Purplesage]

Knox

Not sure if this Knox ever had a liner, anyway the price was right. The felt is in great shape. It has a 2 1/2" snap down brim with raw edge, 5 5/8" crown depth with a 1 3/4" grosgrain ribbon. I'm thinking late 30s or early 40s at the latest since the bow is frayed on the trailing edges which was fairly common in the 30s. Anyway, I haven't seen any Knox hats with a frayed bow from the 40s. I'm sure some Knox expert will contradict me but I welcome the input.

 

[alanfgag]

Not to contradict, but you might take a ribbin' for dating a hat by its ribbon.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

IIRC that reorder label is typical for the 40s. I think Brad B. did a dating guide for these? Yes, here. looks to be a "transitional" label in Brad's terminology. So, sometime early to middle 40s? I'm not sure about "price ceiling" labels, but the one stuck to your sweatband looks like the one described as such by Brad.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Not to contradict, but you might take a ribbin' for dating a hat by its ribbon.

Especially when it's sportin' a 1940s HCA label.

Brad

 

[Purplesage]

LoL that's a good one Alan. That's true, there are certain hats such as Cavanagh that continued to put that type of frayed end ribbon. I'm sure there are others as well but I haven't personally seen a Knox from the 40s era with a frayed ribbon and I own quite a few Knox hats. Additinally, there is always the possibility that a hat was special ordered that way! It's a nice hat regardless of the age. Actually one of my preferred styles, high untapped open crown and mid-size (2 1/2") snap down brim. With that being said, I'm always seeking more knowledge when it comes to dating and identifying vintage hats as well as a from a historical perspective. So what is you're opinion as to the date of this particular Knox. I know Brad Bowers is a HCA expert so maybe he can weigh in on this as well.

 

[Purplesage]

Ok Brad, when did HCA phase in the 40s size tag and was there a transitional period or overlap? Have you seen or do you own any 40s Knox hats with the frayed ribbon? Is it possible that the hat was made in the late 30s during a transitional period or was there no transitional period? So if you were dating this hat Brad what would be the earliest period it could have been made? How about the $10.00 price tag, would that offer an additional clue? There is no model on the hat such as "The 5th Avenue"? Do you think the hat had a liner? I have some early 40s Knox hats to include "The Vagabond" and "The 5th Avenue" without liners but with the Knox crest on the crown tip and unreeded sweatbands. Was there a date that Knox stopped using unreeded sweatbands? I'm sure this block number is already on the HAC block Number thread. Thanks for any info you can provide.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Ok Brad, when did HCA phase in the 40s size tag and was there a transitional period or overlap?

What I refer to as the standard '40s label appears to have come in sometime during World War II. There is a transitional period with a different label, which I date circa-1940 for convenience, but it's always possible it could have been used in the late-1930s. This is the transitional label, and this one comes from an OPA hat, so it was still in use in at least 1942:


This is the standard 1940s label, and it, too, comes from an OPA-era hat, so the overlap period if there is any is World War II.


This is a variation of the standard 1940s label with descriptors, which denotes the J. Garvan Cavanagh finishing patent number (like yours, though I don't see the finishing patent number on yours, so yours may be another variation):

Have you seen or do you own any 40s Knox hats with the frayed ribbon?

No, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Yours is proof of that!

Is it possible that the hat was made in the late 30s during a transitional period or was there no transitional period? So if you were dating this hat Brad what would be the earliest period it could have been made? How about the $10.00 price tag, would that offer an additional clue?

As referenced above, this would not be '30s or transitional 1940s. If there is no OPA information on the hat, and there were several tags that might say that (including the price tag on yours), it is post-WWII to 1950-ish. The $10.00 price is common into the mid-1950s.

There is no model on the hat such as "The 5th Avenue"? Do you think the hat had a liner? I have some early 40s Knox hats to include "The Vagabond" and "The 5th Avenue" without liners but with the Knox crest on the crown tip and unreeded sweatbands. Was there a date that Knox stopped using unreeded sweatbands?

If there is no tip sticker in the crown, or evidence that there was ever one glued there, then the hat originally had a liner. HCA used unreeded sweatbands on some lightweight models into the 1940s, but I've yet to determine at what point they dropped them altogether.

Brad

 

[Purplesage]

Thanks Brad, always a pleasure. I just realized that Block #5170, Depth 5 5/8, is a new one to add to the HCA Block # thread.

 

[jrstengel]

Really like my new Banjo Paterson. Wore it everyday on our recent trip to NC and the Smokeys.