Post Brexit import experiences

[Rich22]

It works like any other exporter. Just like Aero can and should do. Any exporter returns the previously accounted VAT. Moreover, this happens in all countries. The British intermediary buys the goods in his own name and sends it to you.
Aero has a UK VAT number. You can see it on their invoices. Any of its products can be VAT refunded.

Is what you're proposing legal? Would the intermediary declare they're just passing goods on to a third party? How much would HM's government want to pinch off you as a fee, like when you leave a country and try to claim VAT back on goods and they find creative ways to only give you half of it (or less)? After the intermediary's fees and the government fees, and a bonus round of posting a leather jacket, does it save much money? So many questions..,.

 

[Rich22]

Here is the invoice, VAT : 00,00
Aero clearly has hidden the VAT amount, to keep it.
View attachment 402486

That is, uh, 'naughty', as I'm sure they themselves are well aware.

 

[born113]

Is what you're proposing legal? Would the intermediary declare they're just passing goods on to a third party? How much would HM's government want to pinch off you as a fee, like when you leave a country and try to claim VAT back on goods and they find creative ways to only give you half of it (or less)? After the intermediary's fees and the government fees, and a bonus round of posting a leather jacket, does it save much money? So many questions..,.

Of course this is all legal.
It seems to me that I have already written about this here and I received the same reaction.
There is a possibility of VAT refund. Anyone who really wants to can find a way. I do not provide such a service. I only refund VAT for the last 20 years worldwide.

 

[Canuck Panda]

I know I can get VAT refund at the airport when I leave, as an individual. But is business refund done differently? Do they get an actual cheque or is the amount simply deducted from their other taxes to the State?

I‘m not defending Aeros practice but I‘ve only experienced immediate Vat deduction from the big retailers like Selfridges…etc. I pay what UK residents pay at small mom n pop shops, although some of them do give me a discount to offset the VAT or they pick up shipping.

I‘ve also filed for duty refunds locally with CBSA, not the same as UK VAT situation, but same idea. Sometimes their letter simply states I have insufficient evidence when I already gave them the receipt and everything. Taxes sucks.

 

[Blackadder]

Here is the invoice, VAT : 00,00
Aero clearly has hidden the VAT amount, to keep it.
View attachment 402486

No surprise. This is what they have been doing to customers outside Europe since day one.

 

[Rich22]

No surprise. This is what they have been doing to customers outside Europe since day one.

In the UK, it's obligatory to include VAT in prices listed for items sold to the public. If it's a £700 listed jacket that figure must include VAT. To change the price in checkout for foreign customers... well, tax law is preposterously complicated, but that seems to lean towards the illegal side of naughty... One would think the minimum necessary would be a statement like "we include a 20% surcharge on all overseas orders."

 

[born113]

In the UK, it's obligatory to include VAT in prices listed for items sold to the public. If it's a £700 listed jacket that figure must include VAT. To change the price in checkout for foreign customers... well, tax law is preposterously complicated, but that seems to lean towards the illegal side of naughty... One would think the minimum necessary would be a statement like "we include a 20% surcharge on all overseas orders."

In UK as well as Aero do many others for foreign buyers. I will not list names here. But over the years, I've got the impression that it's almost a British tradition.
P.S. Just in case someone didn't understand. Not all UK sellers do this.

 

[Rich22]

In UK as well as Aero do many others for foreign buyers. I will not list names here. But over the years, I've got the impression that it's almost a British tradition.
P.S. Just in case someone didn't understand. Not all UK sellers do this.

I'm British but lived abroad for a decade. When shopping from foreign countries for £100+ items, I always contact companies first to clarify that they wouldn't charge me their domestic VAT. No one has ever told me "hard luck, mate, we're going to pocket the extra 20%", nor have they told me they have to make me pay it for any other reason. Should that situation arise, it would be a simple "thanks, but no thanks".

Why would you not want to name and shame companies that participate in nefarious activities?

By the way, if anyone openly listed it in their terms and conditions that they make a 20% surcharge for the hassle of dealing with foreign customers, I'm fine with that. Be open and transparent.

For example, from 10 years ago: a restaurant that I liked in Yangshuo in China declared openly on their menu "We only charge foreigners double". That seemed outrageous, if you didn't know that many/most restaurants in that town charged foreigners 3-4x the Chinese price. Many would drop the surcharge if you ordered in Chinese. Some had no English menu, but would fictionalise high prices for you, even if you were with Chinese friends, sometimes leading to a public shouting match. I'll take an honest inflated price over a sneaky inflated price any day...

By the way, that "tourist pricing" wasn't something I experienced when I most recently lived in China from 2017-2019, but Chinese friends were often able to negotiate some surprising discounts at times. Interestingly, it was wealthier and more senior friends that were able to 'demand' these discounts, while poorer friends in more lowly roles could not- the poorer friends were also more at risk from getting scammed by taxi drivers and simply tolerating it. Sorry for going off topic a bit

 

[Wildhorses]

The situation is still pending with Aero, they may finally give me the refund for the VAT.
They don't understand why this tax is so high. That's the regulation, especially for France.
I am curious to see if in the future the VAT appears as paid on their invoices or not, anf if the price for EU
stays the same or is 20% higher. That may cost a lot, either to them, either to the customer, again.

 

[Rich22]

The situation is still pending with Aero, they may finally give me the refund for the VAT.
They don't understand why this tax is so high. That's the regulation, especially for France.
I am curious to see if in the future the VAT appears as paid on their invoices or not, anf if the price for EU
stays the same or is 20% higher. That may cost a lot, either to them, either to the customer, again.

What did the bill you receive from the firm that delivered to you state? Why would 35% not be the figure you anticipated? 20% VAT + 12% duty + small(ish) fee surely equals roughly 35%?

Edit: It is unfortunate how you had to pay for French VAT and Duty on the sum you paid to Aero which would have been UK VAT. About €50 tax on the "tax"...

 

[Wildhorses]

What did the bill you receive from the firm that delivered to you state? Why would 35% not be the figure you anticipated? 20% VAT + 12% duty + small(ish) fee surely equals roughly 35%?

Edit: It is unfortunate how you had to pay for French VAT and Duty on the sum you paid to Aero which would have been UK VAT. About €50 tax on the "tax"...

I did explain this earlier. For the last 20 years, I have received a lot of packages from the US, and almost never paid any tax. But each time it happened, that was around 35% of the total.
I knew that would happen here, since Brexit, with Aero.
But pre Brexit the "true" 20% VAT was mentioned on the invoice. I did expect this post- Brexit, but as you can see with the last pic I did post, Aero decided to remove it, and instead there is VAT : 00,00.
The price of the jacket stays unchanged, it should be at least 20% less in that case.
There was no way I could have known this before I did order last year.
The fact I pay the VAT + custom fees + DHL fees on a jacket that already has the VAT included in the price is not acceptable.
It seems like it has always been the case before Brexit, for all non-EU buyers.
But there is no reason for me to pay 35% now, because Aero did not find a correct solution.

 

[Rich22]

Hmm, you're confusing two separate issues, seemingly, my friend. Regardless of what Aero write on their invoice these days- £700 with UK VAT or £700 without VAT- you're now still getting stuck with 35% on top, in France, regardless (assuming they bother to check your package in customs), which is out of Aero's control, unless they register as a French tax payer and start sending money across the channel.

I hate to say it, but the European Union did announce the new tax laws some time before they implemented them. The best you can hope for is that Aero refund you the UK VAT as a goodwill gesture. However, if you can prove you placed the order with Aero before July 2021, you might be able to claim exemption to the 20% tax, assuming Aero issue you with a receipt that correctly states 20% tax was levied. I bought some fountain pens and ink from the Netherlands before the tax changes, but they were not posted until after the changes, and that parcel was exempt on its way to the UK. Maybe you'll even get the duty back too, but I don't know the French rules. Worth trying... and if you really want to go nuclear, contact your credit card provider and escalate the matter.

 

[Wildhorses]

Hmm, you're confusing two separate issues, seemingly, my friend. Regardless of what Aero write on their invoice these days- £700 with UK VAT or £700 without VAT- you're now still getting stuck with 35% on top, in France, regardless (assuming they bother to check your package in customs), which is out of Aero's control, unless they register as a French tax payer and start sending money across the channel.

I hate to say it, but the European Union did announce the new tax laws some time before they implemented them. The best you can hope for is that Aero refund you the UK VAT as a goodwill gesture. However, if you can prove you placed the order with Aero before July 2021, you might be able to claim exemption to the 20% tax, assuming Aero issue you with a receipt that correctly states 20% tax was levied. I bought some fountain pens and ink from the Netherlands before the tax changes, but they were not posted until after the changes, and that parcel was exempt on its way to the UK. Maybe you'll even get the duty back too, but I don't know the French rules. Worth trying... and if you really want to go nuclear, contact your credit card provider and escalate the matter.

If the true VAT is mentioned on the invoice, you don't pay the VAT a second time later through customs.
That's what I told to Holly, I am waiting to see what they decide to do with their site conczerning EU buyers :

- Either they keep the price of the jackets unchanged, but incuding the VAT 20% on the invoice,
that's of course the best for buyers but not for Aeroleather ;

- either they add 20% on the invoice, that will be just 20% more for the buyer, but nothing else ;

- either they still keep the price of the jacket unchanged, with VAT : 00,00 and the buyers will have
to pay 35% tax, as showed in the last mail, thats' my case today. But they will lose their EU buyers.

 

[born113]

But they will lose their EU buyers.

I'm guessing stupid now. But wouldn't it be cheaper for you to just go to Scotland yourself and buy a jacket there?

 

[born113]

Why would you not want to name and shame companies that participate in nefarious activities?

No, I won't call. There are too many sensitive people here. "Negative information spoils the mood."

 

[Wildhorses]

I'm guessing stupid now. But wouldn't it be cheaper for you to just go to Scotland yourself and buy a jacket there?

Exactly, that's what Marc mndt told me recently. I should travel to Scotland to buy my jackets now. Or buy something else, I saw that great things are produced today in Pakistan...

 

[Wildhorses]

No, I won't call. There are too many sensitive people here. "Negative information spoils the mood."

That's not my purpose at all. I like that company and I know they meet a complicated situation.
Whatever they decide, they have to state clearly what we have to pay now.
I don't like being badly surprised.

 

[Blackadder]

If the true VAT is mentioned on the invoice, you don't pay the VAT a second time later through customs.
That's what I told to Holly, I am waiting to see what they decide to do with their site conczerning EU buyers :

- Either they keep the price of the jackets unchanged, but incuding the VAT 20% on the invoice,
that's of course the best for buyers but not for Aeroleather ;

- either they add 20% on the invoice, that will be just 20% more for the buyer, but nothing else ;

- either they still keep the price of the jacket unchanged, with VAT : 00,00 and the buyers will have
to pay 35% tax, as showed in the last mail, thats' my case today. But they will lose their EU buyers.

If it is shown that VAT is paid to the UK Government, no VAT would be charged by the French Government even after Brexit? I understand that is the pre Brexit situation because VAT is only charged once in the exporting country if products are sold within EU. But my understanding is that it is not the case after Brexit. It is like you buying from the US. Each State has States sales tax and when you are buying from US, the seller does not have to pay the local sales tax because the product is exported. You in France would be charged duty and French sales tax amounting to 35%. So the issue is not the invoice or creative paperwork but as Rich said price discrimination.

 

[Wildhorses]

The VAT is due to the EEU, not to the UK. This VAT did already exist before Brexit, there is no reason a second VAT should be added now. The VAT is still due to the EEU, not the UK. I am lost with all of this...

 

[Blackadder]

I'm British but lived abroad for a decade. When shopping from foreign countries for £100+ items, I always contact companies first to clarify that they wouldn't charge me their domestic VAT. No one has ever told me "hard luck, mate, we're going to pocket the extra 20%", nor have they told me they have to make me pay it for any other reason. Should that situation arise, it would be a simple "thanks, but no thanks".

Why would you not want to name and shame companies that participate in nefarious activities?

By the way, if anyone openly listed it in their terms and conditions that they make a 20% surcharge for the hassle of dealing with foreign customers, I'm fine with that. Be open and transparent.

For example, from 10 years ago: a restaurant that I liked in Yangshuo in China declared openly on their menu "We only charge foreigners double". That seemed outrageous, if you didn't know that many/most restaurants in that town charged foreigners 3-4x the Chinese price. Many would drop the surcharge if you ordered in Chinese. Some had no English menu, but would fictionalise high prices for you, even if you were with Chinese friends, sometimes leading to a public shouting match. I'll take an honest inflated price over a sneaky inflated price any day...

By the way, that "tourist pricing" wasn't something I experienced when I most recently lived in China from 2017-2019, but Chinese friends were often able to negotiate some surprising discounts at times. Interestingly, it was wealthier and more senior friends that were able to 'demand' these discounts, while poorer friends in more lowly roles could not- the poorer friends were also more at risk from getting scammed by taxi drivers and simply tolerating it. Sorry for going off topic a bit

I have no such worries but I would not call that shaming. It is useful information for people buying from overseas. AFAIK, Lewis leather does not refund VAT but would offer free shipping to non-EU customers. I believe Simmons Bilt, Eastman and Bill Kelso also do not offer VAT refund to non-EU customers.
Aero did give an answer or reason for the price discrimination. It is pretty transparent say if you ask for a VAT refund from any of those companies as non-EU customer, the answer is no. So it is open knowledge in forums.