Politics and outwear

[GraceNote13]

I was surfing eBay this morning and came across a Ralph Lauren copy of the A-1, Aero Aeromarine/Simmons Bilt/Himel jacket made in China with a retail price of $1600.00

I know this happens everyday in every market, but I hate seeing large corporations making huge profits on products made with cheap labor and inferior materials. It kills me knowing that someone's going to buy these jackets from RRL and continue the process of killing small business's and support countries that exploit it's workforce.

I would rather support companies like Aero, Himel and others that pay their employee's fair rates so they can support their families and local economies and actually have products that will last a lifetime then the junk some of these large companies are putting out on the market. Just my two cents.

 

[RJR]

I was surfing eBay this morning and came across a Ralph Lauren copy of the A-1, Aero Aeromarine/Simmons Bilt/Himel jacket made in China with a retail price of $1600.00

I know this happens everyday in every market, but I hate seeing large corporations making huge profits on products made with cheap labor and inferior materials. It kills me knowing that someone's going to buy these jackets from RRL and continue the process of killing small business's and support countries that exploit it's workforce.

I would rather support companies like Aero, Himel and others that pay their employee's fair rates so they can support their families and local economies and actually have products that will last a lifetime then the junk some of these large companies are putting out on the market. Just my two cents.

Agree,absolutely.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

That's capitalism for you bud, the same that gives you the likes of eBay, Google, Amazon & the computer or smartphone you're using.

 

[ProteinNerd]

They can only sell overpriced sweat shop produced jackets if suckers keep buying for the prices they charge....

 

[Superfluous]

RRL leather jackets are indeed made in China. On the other hand, they are generally well made garments -- not your stereotypical "made in China" garbage. China is now capable of producing top quality products. Moreover, RRL uses high quality leather. Lastly, many of RRL's jackets are reproductions of actual vintage pieces (often purchased from Dinerman). The end result is some pretty decent jackets.

Like the OP and others, I prefer to buy from individual craftsman such as JC and Himel. That said, I am not opposed to RRL on political or ideological grounds. I own a RRL leather jacket and countless others RRL products (e.g., jeans and shirts), and I continue to patronize RRL (although less so for leather jackets).

There are plenty of oppressive working conditions in the United States, Europe and elsewhere. China and Southeast Asian have by no means cornered the market on oppressive working conditions. This issue is far more complicated (and I am not an expert).

Lastly, I have seen threads like this on other forums and they usually trend south very quickly and can get ugly. I hope this thread takes the high road and avoids an ad hominem path.

 

[pawineguy]

Superfluous beat me to the punch, although like him, I agree with the desire to spend my $ with smaller craftsmen.

RRL, for a large corporation, does a particularly good job at producing high quality goods, especially their leather jackets. (They almost always go on sale at some point, even though they are still expensive at the sale prices) Over on SF, one of their well travelled editors recently named the top 5 denim stores in the world, and included RRL on his list, which is saying something about how good a job they do.

I do agree with your general premise, but I hold more disdain for some of the more "fashion" oriented brands who sell thin, ill-fitting lambskin jackets for twice what RRL charges.

 

[GraceNote13]

Superfluous, I agree with your comments whole hearted and over the years have had many RRL products and still buy many of their dress shirts and slacks. As a business owner my thoughts were more inline with the fact that, fair trade is not always at the top of the list of discussions at board meetings unless pushed by consumers usually.

Many of the RRL jackets i've seen at Macy's and other large department stores have not been worth the price being asked though, especially when compared to buying from smaller makers.

I hope this discussion does not go south either that was not my intent, I only wanted to express that working with smaller businesses has a huge impact on supporting local economies of the companies we support.

 

[nick123]

I can only hope the conditions from anything I purchase are tolerable for the workers behind the product. I don't know about RRL but I'm sure I turn a blind eye to the department store goods I buy. Sadly, it's something I've neglected to pay attention to. But thank you for bringing it up. It's good to stop and look around once in a while.

 

[ButteMT61]

I like made by hand stuff in the US/UK, etc. when I can. I have a killer RRL jacket that is mil-inspired with "Conmar" zips and is very well made. Got it here a couple years back and it's amazingly warm, comfortable and well made.
But I would not get a jacket made of leather by anyone else but the usual vendors we have here - just can't do it.
If I'm wearing a Mil or Civi repop jacket, it's got to be by someone that appreciates and respects it. While I'm sure nice products are made in China and Viet Nam, etc., I won't purchase that sort of thing for a number of reasons, trying to keep the TFL 'no politics' rules in mind

 

[Sloan1874]

I would not get a jacket made of leather by anyone else but the usual vendors we have here - just can't do it.
If I'm wearing a Mil or Civi repop jacket, it's got to be by someone that appreciates and respects it.

+1
I suspect that this thread will not live long...

 

[ChiTownScion]

They can freeze or kill this thread of course, but I think that it's fair to say that how we feel about a particular vendor- for reasons other than the final product- can affect our decision to do business with same. We've addressed that in other threads, and in that context, I read the OP as an equitable assessment.

 

[tropicalbob]

The problem with this thread is in the title. What the OP is talking about isn't a political subject, but an economic or human-rights one.

 

[Bamaboots]

I appreciate the OP's point of view on this matter and in a perfect world (one where I could afford it) all of my garments would be from artisans and manufacturers from small labels where personal service and quality is assured. As it were, I have to choose carefully and prioritize where my $ is spent.

I'm not a leather jacket collector as many of you are but I appreciate a good jacket and in particular, the a2. I own a Cockpit USA in horsehide that I picked up on the bay for $225 and while I know it's not a highly prized label here, it fits and suits my need well. I began a search for a black a2 not long ago and found an RL in unworn condition for $225. I knew it was made in China but I've owned other RL leather products and the quality has always been great. For the money I couldn't be more pleased. One piece back, quality knits and the zip appears to be good quality, though stamped POLO. The leather is not identified but is some of the heaviest I have come across and its probably steer but comparing the grain with the horsehide jacket I own and others I've handled, it could be horse.

The point being, I would never pay the $1250 retail that this jacket sold for and if I was willing to, one of the other outfits that so many of you are fond of would have gotten a call from me but with the quality and the price, I didn't pass it up.

By the same token I collect vintage and custom cowboy boots. The only boots I own are either of vintage manufacture from US And Mexican companies or small shop artisans making MTM boots. I will never buy a boot made in Mexico for a US company but there are some fine artisans making boots in Mexico. Most of the skilled labor in early US boot manufacturing came from there and they certainly weren't treated the best. Now that so much of boot manufacturing has moved back to Mexico, those same skilled laborers are doing the same work for less on an inferior product. Thank you NAFTA and Berkshire -Hathaway.

One notable exception to the boot mfg. is Liberty Boot Co., Canadian owned and made in Mexico. A quality cowboy boot.

 

[Seb Lucas]

The problem with this thread is in the title. What the OP is talking about isn't a political subject, but an economic or human-rights one.

I would have thought that economics and human rights are the product of political systems... just saying. But yeah, if the post had a less inflammatory title it might help. The point is many of our fun consumer goods have dire consequences for others. I know a lot of us here are careful where we buy things because we know markets are not always kind.

 

[AdeeC]

I have been to China every year for over a decade and to Vietnam at least eight times. There are millions of fine craftspersons there, more than perhaps the entire population of New York. Seen amazing work in many trades done with the most basic tools in traditional ways. Give them the right product to make, a decent wage, good materials and they will blow anything made elsewhere away. I have owned a few RL products made in China and the quality in all respects is excellent. There are also many obscure Chinese clothing makers that cater to the local market that are outstanding. Significantly because they do not have a well known international label they are still a bargain to buy in China. I am a big fan of all sorts of traditional fine workmanship no matter where it is made and support both foreign and local.

 

[Sloan1874]

I spoke to one guy and he told me that when it comes to Chinese manufacturers it comes down to how much you want to pay in terms of finish and quality.

 

[GraceNote13]

I spoke to one guy and he told me that when it comes to Chinese manufacturers it comes down to how much you want to pay in terms of finish and quality.

Sloan, your 100% right I've seen this with guitars in China, Japan and Indonesia. They all can make products that equal some of the best, it just depends on the how much money is being invested in making the product.

Thanks guy's for keeping this conversation clean and civil, I agree with AdeeC regarding artisans in China as well. Artisans can be found everywhere making unbelievable items regardless of what equipment or tools are available to them.

 

[Sloan1874]

Conversely, I think we just need to look at the likes of Lawless Denim in Arizona to see how it can go really wrong.

 

[Superfluous]

Conversely, I think we just need to look at the likes of Lawless Denim in Arizona to see how it can go really wrong.

Good point. Ethical breaches occur in many different forms.

 

[Superfluous]

Excellent discussion . . . much better than I have seen in similar threads concerning this topic.

There was a time when "made in China" was synonymous with poor quality and intolerable working conditions. While both still exist in China, and elsewhere, China has evolved considerably over the past 10 years. Moreover, other countries have concurrently devolved. Today, China, like other countries, is capable of the best, the worst, and everything in between. China has wonderfully skilled artisans . . . it also has intolerable sweat shops. Companies like RRL extract higher quality products from China. I hope they employ tolerable working conditions to do so (I am somewhat ashamed to admit that I don't currently know the working conditions of RRL's manufacturing facilities in China, but I intend to make some inquiries).

Notwithstanding the wonderful products that China is capable of making, I still prefer patronizing individual craftsman and small shops for several reasons. For example, I enjoy supporting old world craftsmanship so that it may endure and survive mass market competition. I also enjoy interacting with individual craftsman and learning from them. I also derive pleasure from wearing a garment made by a person with whom I have a personal relationship. Lastly, I enjoy the personal attention and service. Thus, I exalt individual craftsman and small shops, and endeavor to give them a considerable portion of my business, but I do not rule out mass marketers who produce quality products.