Pocketwatches

[jamespowers]

Just wanted to post a recommendation for Paul's Watch and Clock Repair.
Two weeks ago I accidentally dropped my Jean Marcel pocketwatch (not vintage, but I love it anyway!).
Stopped dead.
Exactly two weeks after sending my watch across the country to Paul's (I'm currently in Pittsburgh and he is in California), I had it back, good as new! And at a very fair price.

I had first sent this watch to Paul's a few years ago to have the dial re-done (at the recommendation of fellow FL'ers), and he did a great job with it. So instead of trying to find a local shop, get recommendations, etc., I went with someone I trusted.

Considering that most of the time the watch was out of my hands it was either a weekend or in transit, I am really amazed at the fast turnaround.

I am glad Paul worked out for you again. He does great work and fast. If you ever went to his shop, you would wonder how he gets so much done in such a small space.

 

[jamespowers]

Oh, I forgot to mention my latest acquisition:

 

[Shangas]

Very pretty! What size is that?

 

[jamespowers]

Very pretty! What size is that?

It is a 16 size Winnebago. I have been wanting one of these for a while but didn't want to pay a ton of money for one. This was my kind of price---running and everything! Supposedly railroad grade but I am not sure.

 

[William Stratford]

A couple of very pretty timepieces....and a nice pistol as well

 

[Shangas]

It's a very nice watch, but it ain't railroad nothin'. It's missing too many of the necessary features.

 

[Don Dahlberg]

Your 16 size Rockford Winnebago dates from about 1907. It was a grade 405. It was a railroad grade at that time. Soon most railroads upgraded the jewel requirements to 19 jewels. It was adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positions. It had a double-roller escapement, sapphire pallet jewels, breguet hairspring, steel escape wheel and patent micrometer regulator.

The only thing wrong with the watch is that it has been re-cased. The case is more appropriate for the 1920s and you can see other case screw marks on the case. That shows that another watch once lived in this case.

Nice watch.

Don Dahlberg
NAWCC volunteer

 

[jamespowers]

Your 16 size Rockford Winnebago dates from about 1907. It was a grade 405. It was a railroad grade at that time. Soon most railroads upgraded the jewel requirements to 19 jewels. It was adjusted to temperature, isochronism and five positions. It had a double-roller escapement, sapphire pallet jewels, breguet hairspring, steel escape wheel and patent micrometer regulator.

The only thing wrong with the watch is that it has been re-cased. The case is more appropriate for the 1920s and you can see other case screw marks on the case. That shows that another watch once lived in this case.

Nice watch.

Don Dahlberg
NAWCC volunteer

I got that it was from 1906 but all the other information matches. It is also a model 5 and lever set.
I'll take it in whatever case it comes. Rockford made so few watches over its lifetime that you take what you can get when it finds you.

 

[Don Dahlberg]

Estimating the date from the serial number is not an exact science. Serial numbers were assigned when a watch run was started. We do not have good records for many companies. Some runs of watches were sidelined during production, while hotter selling models were rushed through. These dates can be off as much as a decade, but we usually estimate +/- a couple of years. Watches came in "models", which described the basic design of the movement. Models were subdivided into grades, which described the degree of fit and finish, as well as special components, sort of like option packages in a car.

Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer wrote a great article on Rockford railroad grade watches in the August 1988 issue of the NAWCC Bulletin. You may also enjoy "Just what is a railroad watch" at http://ph.nawcc.org/Railroad/Railroad.htm

The 405 Winnebego was at the low end of railroad approved watches. The movement cost $35.50, while their other railroad grades ranged from $45 to $100. There was also the price of the case. This was at a time when the average salary in the US was $1.80 per day. Still the 405 met all the requirements of a railroad grade watches at the time. The jewel count really was sufficient to keep railroad time, of 30 seconds per week, and it had all the other features that were required. Still about this time there was a "jewel race" where the more jewels a watch had, the more prestigious it was. A 21 jewel watch is not that much better, but that became the standard. For this reason 17 jewel railroad grade watches are still a bargain. The Hamilton 972 is a great example.

You are right, Rockford watches are rather rare. With a total production of about 1 million watches (nothing compared with the big four companies), Rockford watches demand a premium compared with similar watches by Hamilton, Illinois, Elgin or Waltham. It is a beauty.

Don

 

[jamespowers]

Estimating the date from the serial number is not an exact science. Serial numbers were assigned when a watch run was started. We do not have good records for many companies. Some runs of watches were sidelined during production, while hotter selling models were rushed through. These dates can be off as much as a decade, but we usually estimate +/- a couple of years. Watches came in "models", which described the basic design of the movement. Models were subdivided into grades, which described the degree of fit and finish, as well as special components, sort of like option packages in a car.

Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer wrote a great article on Rockford railroad grade watches in the August 1988 issue of the NAWCC Bulletin. You may also enjoy "Just what is a railroad watch" at http://ph.nawcc.org/Railroad/Railroad.htm

The 405 Winnebego was at the low end of railroad approved watches. The movement cost $35.50, while their other railroad grades ranged from $45 to $100. There was also the price of the case. This was at a time when the average salary in the US was $1.80 per day. Still the 405 met all the requirements of a railroad grade watches at the time. The jewel count really was sufficient to keep railroad time, of 30 seconds per week, and it had all the other features that were required. Still about this time there was a "jewel race" where the more jewels a watch had, the more prestigious it was. A 21 jewel watch is not that much better, but that became the standard. For this reason 17 jewel railroad grade watches are still a bargain. The Hamilton 972 is a great example.

You are right, Rockford watches are rather rare. With a total production of about 1 million watches (nothing compared with the big four companies), Rockford watches demand a premium compared with similar watches by Hamilton, Illinois, Elgin or Waltham. It is a beauty.

Don

Good to know. Thanks for the link.
I have several of the other brands of Railroad Approved watches from the Santa Fe Special to the Father Time. There were tons of those made in comparison. It is always interesting to take advantage of the public that doesn't know what they have and find a gem.

 

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Talbot,

Many thanks for your kind words, Sir. Like you I love verge fusee movements, and my oldest is from 1690, and still runs like a top! I can post a few more photos, of watches and their movements, and yes, the pistol is a Queen Anne screw-barrel, which was the "magnum" pistol of it's day. It would shoot right through most chest and back plate "armor", as the screw-barrel allows the full power of the black powder to increase the velocity of the ball, which is .600 size. Regular muzzle loaders, which use a tightly patched round ball, exhibit what's called " blow-by", as powder blows past the patch and out the barrel without helping the ball at all. I like verge fusee watches, antique flintlock pistols, razors and eyeglasses from the same time period, and most of all, medical implements and medical books of the 18th century! Fun, that's for sure! Thanks, again, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

 

[Doc Mark]

Hi, Talbot, and All,

Here are a few more of my verge fusee pocket watches, dates beginning in 1690, and ending in 1832. All except the 1832 specimen are from the 18th century. Dials in the first photo, movements in the second, and a detail shot of three different sizes and years.

Though I know it's not possible, there wonderful chain-drive watches almost seem to have a soul!! I love them, and the fact that all of mine, including these, are running very well, some keeping absolutely stellar time for their ages! Thanks for the interest, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

P.S. By the way, the most rare of my pistols and also watches, live in a bank deposit box, and only come out when I wish to do research and such. Safety is the best course of action, with such old antiques.

 

[Talbot]

The movements are a work of art on thier own, not to mention the fusee mechanism. You have some impressive cases and chains. Thank you very much for sharing.

Understand about the safe deposit box. A friend of mine had his collection of mid century IWC stolen from his home.

 

[bburtner@moran]

Oh the pocket watch,been thinking about buying another one,I have had a few RR grades in the past a Howard series 11 chronometer(the Patek of American pocket watches) a 992 Hamilton and some others.Just passed up an Illinois "Sangamo" 21j lever set gothic syle dial 16 size for 245.00 in Adamstown Pa.RR grades have dropped in price quite a bit.There is a web site CHwatch this guy has some nice RR`s at decent prices,a Bunn Special 21j GF case no brassing nice DS dial for $250.00,also Elgin,"Father Time" with RR case for $250.00.Anyone interested google him up I am sure you will find something in your budget.Brian...

 

[Gin&Tonics]

Here's a question hopefully some of our more knowlegible watch afficionados can answer: I saw a very attractive 17 jewel Elgin pocket watch today with lovely cobalt blue hands in a local antique shop. It was priced at 45 bucks, which seemed an insane deal until I tried winding it. The time can still be set without any problem, and the crown can turn in reverse (the ratchet works) but when you try to wind it up, it's stuck fast. I didn't want to try and force it, obviously, but I very carefully applied gradually increasing pressure and found that it wouldn't budge. The movement was a very clean looking 17 jewel.

My question: Is this watch a paperweight, or do you guys think maybe it can be repaired? I don't think it's a broken mainspring, as my understanding is that such a problem leads to a freely spinning crown, not a jammed one. I considered offering 30 bucks and trying to get it repaired.

Thoughts?

 

[Shangas]

It sounds like it was wound up, but too gunked up to actually RUN. A trip to the watchmaker will most likely fix that. It's a common watch-problem. For $30, I say GRAB IT AND RUN!

 

[kiwilrdg]

It may be just dirty or it may have a problem in the escapement. Even if it needs repairs you will still get a bargain.

 

[dnjan]

Completely un-recoverable.
Name and address of the shop, please?

 

[Gin&Tonics]

Completely un-recoverable.
Name and address of the shop, please?

Yeah, this is definitely proof I need to go back and buy it Hope it's still there!

 

[Shangas]

The best of luck, Gin! Photographs, please!