Please help me with formalwear for my wedding...

[boushi_mania]

I'm getting married in August. Originally, I was thinking of wearing either a lightweight suit or navy blazer / white slacks along the lines of the old-timey guidelines for a "garden wedding", but I've been beset from all sides by people who keep telling me that I ought to "dress up" for this very special occasion. (A number of these are people who consider a suit "dressing up", but I guess a wedding to them means something more.) I briefly considered full morning dress, but as it will be midsummer and a cutaway is an awful lot of heavy wool, I thought that my best bet might be a stroller instead.

As it stands, I've got black Oxfords and dark socks already for my suit. I've also acquired three "wedding ties" for myself, the best man, and one of the ushers (houndstooth, "pinwheel" houndstooth, and Glen plaid), and am on the hunt for at least two more. I got a pair of cufflinks for cheap off eBay, found some grey suede gloves on sale in Osaka, and it appears I can get a cotton shirt with detachable collar made for under $150 through the local Kintetsu department store (would appreciate advice on color, if any). I've even got a lead on a Homburg, thanks to a fellow Lounger. So, that leaves the main three garments. (I know that they're not technically a "suit", but since the Formalwear Primer is in the Suits forum, it seemed like the right spot for this thread.)

First, the jacket: I do happen to have a double-breasted, black "formal suit" (yes, I know that's an oxymoron) which I use for choral concerts, and whose jacket could be used as a stroller in a pinch. I don't really like the fabric finish, though, and it looks a tad bit cheap overall to be using as formalwear. However, if I did simply use this, I'd only have to hunt down a waistcoat and trousers. Consider it my reserve option. The other option is to either buy off-the-rack or have one made. I'm lucky in that Japan actually has ready-to-wear strollers, and that I fit neatly into the A6 size (37" chest / 32" waist). But if I want one in dark grey, which is my preference, I'd probably have to do made-to-measure. In fact, this is probably cheaper anyhow--formal daywear has a premium price attached to it even when the construction is not significantly different. Buying an "odd suit jacket" which just happens to be single-breasted with peak lapels seems like a great way to circumvent the formalwear surcharge.

As for slacks, striped formal trousers are easy to come by, if not exactly cheap. If I could find them secondhand in a 32", it would be ideal, but I'm bad at eBay auctions that aren't Buy-It-Now. (Just lost my chance on a vintage '30s pair the other day, which saddens me.) The other option is to get some houndstooth or Glen plaid slacks off the rack at a regular clothes store; this would be less expensive than the formal stripes, but I also worry about it clashing with the tie I have picked out. (How much check is too much?)

Then there's the waistcoat. I can buy one of these off the rack, though if I do, it will be single-breasted and without lapels (and again, fairly expensive for what it is). However, I can have one made for less than $250, in a single- or double-breasted style, with lapels. I may go this route if I can't find anything secondhand.

Granted, I could always go for a rental on these, and use my purchased accoutrements with them as a way to class them up. But, this being the Lounge, I don't really expect you to recommend that route... or do you?

 

[Bugsy]

I'm getting married in August. Originally, I was thinking of wearing either a lightweight suit or navy blazer / white slacks along the lines of the old-timey guidelines for a "garden wedding", but I've been beset from all sides by people who keep telling me that I ought to "dress up" for this very special occasion. (A number of these are people who consider a suit "dressing up", but I guess a wedding to them means something more.) I briefly considered full morning dress, but as it will be midsummer and a cutaway is an awful lot of heavy wool, I thought that my best bet might be a stroller instead.

As it stands, I've got black Oxfords and dark socks already for my suit. I've also acquired three "wedding ties" for myself, the best man, and one of the ushers (houndstooth, "pinwheel" houndstooth, and Glen plaid), and am on the hunt for at least two more. I got a pair of cufflinks for cheap off eBay, found some grey suede gloves on sale in Osaka, and it appears I can get a cotton shirt with detachable collar made for under $150 through the local Kintetsu department store (would appreciate advice on color, if any). I've even got a lead on a Homburg, thanks to a fellow Lounger. So, that leaves the main three garments. (I know that they're not technically a "suit", but since the Formalwear Primer is in the Suits forum, it seemed like the right spot for this thread.)

First, the jacket: I do happen to have a double-breasted, black "formal suit" (yes, I know that's an oxymoron) which I use for choral concerts, and whose jacket could be used as a stroller in a pinch. I don't really like the fabric finish, though, and it looks a tad bit cheap overall to be using as formalwear. However, if I did simply use this, I'd only have to hunt down a waistcoat and trousers. Consider it my reserve option. The other option is to either buy off-the-rack or have one made. I'm lucky in that Japan actually has ready-to-wear strollers, and that I fit neatly into the A6 size (37" chest / 32" waist). But if I want one in dark grey, which is my preference, I'd probably have to do made-to-measure. In fact, this is probably cheaper anyhow--formal daywear has a premium price attached to it even when the construction is not significantly different. Buying an "odd suit jacket" which just happens to be single-breasted with peak lapels seems like a great way to circumvent the formalwear surcharge.

As for slacks, striped formal trousers are easy to come by, if not exactly cheap. If I could find them secondhand in a 32", it would be ideal, but I'm bad at eBay auctions that aren't Buy-It-Now. (Just lost my chance on a vintage '30s pair the other day, which saddens me.) The other option is to get some houndstooth or Glen plaid slacks off the rack at a regular clothes store; this would be less expensive than the formal stripes, but I also worry about it clashing with the tie I have picked out. (How much check is too much?)

Then there's the waistcoat. I can buy one of these off the rack, though if I do, it will be single-breasted and without lapels (and again, fairly expensive for what it is). However, I can have one made for less than $250, in a single- or double-breasted style, with lapels. I may go this route if I can't find anything secondhand.

Granted, I could always go for a rental on these, and use my purchased accoutrements with them as a way to class them up. But, this being the Lounge, I don't really expect you to recommend that route... or do you?

I'm more or less of an old fuddy duddy when it comes to wedding attire. I think the first thing to consider is what the time the ceremony will take place. Morning? Evening? Afternoon? Next, consider what the bride will be wearing, e.g. long gown, short gown. If this is typical wedding, the bride will probably be spending a nice sum of money on her dress. When not buy--NOT RENT--a nice light weight tuxedo in a very traditional style but something you can wear again. You probably have enough time to get something made to order. It's your wedding day. Splurge. After you decide on all the factors, do what you want, stop listening to others, and have a most wonderful day. My congratulations to you both.

 

[boushi_mania]

It's in the middle of the day, and to me a tuxedo in broad daylight is too strongly associated with my years spent singing in various choirs to seriously consider it, even without the traditional prohibition on evening dress before 6. Unless I'm getting paid to sing, I'd rather go for morning dress. That said, I appreciate the advice; maybe I'll just have to pony up the cash for the full rig, rather than try and find clever workarounds.

In that case, what are people's opinions on:

• black vs. Oxford-grey jacket?
• white vs. subtly colored shirt?
• dove-grey vs. buff (and single- vs. double-breasted) waistcoat?
• traditional striped vs. checked trousers?

 

[LaMedicine]

I believe your fiancee is Japanese, no? If so, it's best you talk it over what her family expects, because *face* is more important in Japan, as you probably know well. The bride's family may be concerned what other relatives will say if your attire is too casual to their eyes.

Marriage here is not just two individuals vowing to make a life together. Here, it is still very much a merging of two families as well, and also the first time the families meet each other. At least, it is going to be still that way for your bride's family, even if your bride doesn't think that way. Humoring the older generation is not a bad idea, because it can pave the way for easier acceptance of you, for them.

Where is the wedding going to take place? That should be taken into consideration, too. If it's going to be at a traditional wedding palace, then it's probably safest to go very traditional, especially if your bride is going to wear a full length wedding gown. (Since it's mid summer, I expect she isn't going to wear a uchikake or a hikizuri furisode which are the two traditional bridal kimonos. If she is going to wear one or the other, you're going to have to wear either a morning coat or a montsuki-haori-hakama ensemble to balance out the formality of her attire.) If it's going to be a *restaurant wedding* which is becoming more popular these days, then, maybe what's known as a director's suit here?

If the wedding is going to be held indoors (mid August in Japan is excuciatingly hot, anyway), it's going to be air conditioned, so a light weight summer formal suit probably will be most acceptable. Even if you aren't thiking of renting, since you still have time, I think you should see what kind of attire are available for summer weddings at rental places. Of course, skip all the tacky tux and morning coats that seem to be the rage now, the formal wear rental shops should have more traditional attire available as well. You probably will be able to get a better idea of what to prepare after hearing suggestions from the pros here.

 

[boushi_mania]

She is Japanese. She is also the only chid of a single father (her mother passed away when she was very young), and the only living members of her extended family are all on her mother's side. That means that I am primarily dealing with her father, a semi-retired salaryman. It perhaps makes things simpler, though I suppose my fiancée being the last of her line could also complicate matters.

If we are to have a ceremony in Japan, then it isn't decided; we are primarily planning on a ceremony in the United States in August (when I can take a large amount of time off from work) for the benefit of my very large extended family, plus a reception back in Japan for our friends there. Her father has been basically silent with regards to his own wants, if he has any. We do expect him to come with us for the ceremony, although (according to my fiancée) he has never traveled abroad and seems to be afraid of flying. We'll do what we can to ease his phobia.

But sure, I'll look around at the rental places in Japan. It might be worth seeing if I can't rent something far more classic than I'd be able to pull together in the U.S. on a similar budget.

 

[LaMedicine]

Since it's in the US, you probably can have a wider range of choices.
FYI: Here are a couple of pics from my hubby's niece's wedding that was held in April in Hawai'i a few years ago. The bride is Japanese, the groom American. The ceremony was at dusk, and then dinner reception, so the time of day is later than yours.
Leaving the chapel after the ceremony.

At the party, with the jacket off.

Incidentally, the bustier and the stole of the bride's dress was made from a brocade obi that her parents had originally prepared as part of her trousseau.

Since you'll be having only a reception in Japan, dressing for that can be less formal than with a preceding ceromony, but it will be best to balance your attire with what the bride chooses to wear e.g. if she chooses formal, then formal for you, if she casual, then casual for you. She just may want to wear a kimono for th receotion in Japan (can't see her wearing one in the US unless she can dress herself in a kimono), in which case, your choice can range from dinner jacket to a conservative black/dark suit.

 

[boushi_mania]

Incidentally, the bustier and the stole of the bride's dress was made from a brocade obi that her parents had originally prepared as part of her trousseau.

That's interesting. My fiancée is still looking into options for a wedding dress; I wonder if her family has a similar tradition. (I don't know whom to ask, with her mother deceased and her father apparently oblivious to these things.)

Since you'll be having only a reception in Japan, dressing for that can be less formal than with a preceding ceromony, but it will be best to balance your attire with what the bride chooses to wear e.g. if she chooses formal, then formal for you, if she casual, then casual for you. She just may want to wear a kimono for the reception in Japan (can't see her wearing one in the US unless she can dress herself in a kimono), in which case, your choice can range from dinner jacket to a conservative black/dark suit.

That can certainly be done. (I'd prefer a dark suit to the black "formal suit" category; to me, the black suit only exists for funerals and choir concerts.)

 

[LaMedicine]

If the family is well off, most certainly, the parents will prepare a kimono or two with all the trappings--obi, jyuban etc etc everything that one needs to put on a kimono-- for use for formal occasions just in case, as part of the bride's trousseau. This usually falls on the shoulders of the female members of the family. If the family is close, then, even if the mother is not around, it isn't uncommon for aunts and grandparents to step in and make a fuss.
My niece's dress is actually a two piece. The bustier and skirt are separte pieces that can be worn with different tops and bottoms. The obi used is actually a very good and expensive formal Nishijin-ori obi. However, the color was becoming inappropriate (too *bright* 派手) for her age, so it was cut apart.
Another idea you could use is look around for a second hand white uchikake --shiromuku--(rental kimonos that have recouped their original cost, so the rental companies are letting them go at reasonable prices) and have that altered into a dress.

 

[Mountain Man]

It's in the middle of the day, and to me a tuxedo in broad daylight is too strongly associated with my years spent singing in various choirs to seriously consider it, even without the traditional prohibition on evening dress before 6. Unless I'm getting paid to sing, I'd rather go for morning dress. That said, I appreciate the advice; maybe I'll just have to pony up the cash for the full rig, rather than try and find clever workarounds.

In that case, what are people's opinions on:

• black vs. Oxford-grey jacket?
• white vs. subtly colored shirt?
• dove-grey vs. buff (and single- vs. double-breasted) waistcoat?
• traditional striped vs. checked trousers?

I saw an old edition of the Asheville Citizen showing the wedding of Cornelia Vanderbilt and Lord William F.A.V. Cecil in 1930 and all male members had the same outfit, which I very much admire - black or very dark gray morning coat, buff waistcoat, white shirt with a wing collar, striped trousers, four-in-hand houndstooth or spitalfield tie, buff spats and gloves, and highly shined black shoes. It might be a little overkill as you couldn't wear it during the ceremony, but a black (not gray) top hat completed the look nicely.

 

[Richard Warren]

Interesting article

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Tutorials/AntongiavanniWEDDINGATTIRE.htm

 

[boushi_mania]

Interesting article

http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Tutorials/AntongiavanniWEDDINGATTIRE.htm

Ah, yes. I've read Michael Anton's advice with regards to morning dress, which I think also forms the backbone of the Black Tie Guide's (intentionally brief) treatment of the subject. His eye for detail is good enough that I'm almost willing to give his politics a pass. A lot of the images are now broken, though. All in all, he gives a lot of practical advice, plus classic details for the more daring / perfectionist among us. Shame I'm mostly having to go with the "practical" side of things, this time around.

His book The Suit is also a decent read, for more general office attire.

 

[Orgetorix]

His eye for detail is good enough that I'm almost willing to give his politics a pass.

What on earth does one have to do with the other? And how do you even know what his politics are?

 

[boushi_mania]

What on earth does one have to do with the other? And how do you even know what his politics are?

Nevermind. It wasn't meant to start a political discussion. (If you're curious, just Google it.)

Back on topic?

 

[Bugsy]

It's in the middle of the day, and to me a tuxedo in broad daylight is too strongly associated with my years spent singing in various choirs to seriously consider it, even without the traditional prohibition on evening dress before 6. Unless I'm getting paid to sing, I'd rather go for morning dress. That said, I appreciate the advice; maybe I'll just have to pony up the cash for the full rig, rather than try and find clever workarounds.

In that case, what are people's opinions on:

• black vs. Oxford-grey jacket?
• white vs. subtly colored shirt?
• dove-grey vs. buff (and single- vs. double-breasted) waistcoat?
• traditional striped vs. checked trousers?

If you like morning clothes, then by all means go with what you want. I would tend to go very traditional in all the choices. That still gives you a lot of options. But please consider, this is your day. Don't get so stressed with the details that you and your lovely bride will be too exhausted to enjoy the day. Don't worry too much about protocol. Promise you won't tell anyone, but I myself have worn white after Labor Day. :eusa_doh:

 

[avedwards]

In that case, what are people's opinions on:

• black vs. Oxford-grey jacket?
• white vs. subtly colored shirt?
• dove-grey vs. buff (and single- vs. double-breasted) waistcoat?
• traditional striped vs. checked trousers?

Personally I would have thought that your jacket is either black or charcoal grey, in which case either is equally acceptable and it depends on personal choice. Shirts are completely white or have white collar and cuffs with a subtly coloured body. The cuffs and collar must be white though to be formal enough. With a stroller I believe an attatched collar is not required, so perhaps you can save money by simply buying a white french-cuffed shirt with a spread collar (I know the loung members prefer pointed collars on shirts but for a wedding one must wear a spread collar IMO) I have no idea as regards trousers and waistcoats, but I'd imagine that's also down to personal preference.

That can certainly be done. (I'd prefer a dark suit to the black "formal suit" category; to me, the black suit only exists for funerals and choir concerts.)

If you choose to wear a suit, I believe charcoal grey is a better choice than black. I agree with you that black may not be so good for a wedding, though I personally like it for other not quite as formal social occaisions.

 

[MisterGrey]

Someone please feel free to correct me... I'm very interested in Japanese culture, but my formal education in it has been limited and consists primarily of what I've picked up from movies and the odd book:

In Japan, black, in clothing, connotates dignity and honor, and so a black suit may be appropriate. Be sure, though, that it is not a jet black/pitch black suit, as this is reserved for funerals.

I'd suggest the black suit, or, a black morning coat with striped trousers and the dove gray waistcoat. If you want to wear one of the ties you've already procured, I'd go with a turndown collar of your choosing and one of the houndstooth ties. However, I'd suggest perhaps getting a wing collar shirt and ascot; it's much more formal, and more suited to the occasion of your wedding.

 

[boushi_mania]

If you choose to wear a suit, I believe charcoal grey is a better choice than black. I agree with you that black may not be so good for a wedding, though I personally like it for other not quite as formal social occaisions.

In Japan, black, in clothing, connotates dignity and honor, and so a black suit may be appropriate. Be sure, though, that it is not a jet black/pitch black suit, as this is reserved for funerals.

Just to clarify, the black suit is only a possibility for the reception back in Japan; at this point, I've decided on the ceremony itself being one form or another of morning dress, depending on the outcome of my own search for clothes and discussion with groomsmen. (It appears that they can get either from the local rental shop back home, so neither should be a problem as long as I steer them in the right direction.)

And while I realize the black suit is indeed a valid category for somewhat-formal events in Japan--as this chart suggests, it's the preferred choice where guests would wear suits, but where semi-formal wear would be out-of-place for the hosts--I am not Japanese and do not agree with this particular category. I would personally never wear a black suit to a festive event (especially one as festive as a wedding) unless I were instructed to.

Shirts are completely white or have white collar and cuffs with a subtly coloured body. The cuffs and collar must be white though to be formal enough. With a stroller I believe an attatched collar is not required, so perhaps you can save money by simply buying a white french-cuffed shirt with a spread collar (I know the loung members prefer pointed collars on shirts but for a wedding one must wear a spread collar IMO)

That's a fair point. As it happens, I do have a French-cuffed shirt with a turndown collar, but it has subtle woven stripes throughout, which makes it (to me) more informal. As for my options here, they do sell attached-collar morning shirts with either a fairly substantial(!) wing collar or spread turndown collar, but given my lack of commitment to a cutaway or stroller at the present time, perhaps it makes better economic sense to go with something I can easily change depending on the level of formality. (Schrödinger's collar?) I did check with the shirt-makers at Kintetsu Department Store, and they said they could do a detachable-collar shirt at no extra cost--though they weren't clear if that included the collar and studs or not.

 

[LaMedicine]

In Japan, black, in clothing, connotates dignity and honor, and so a black suit may be appropriate. Be sure, though, that it is not a jet black/pitch black suit, as this is reserved for funerals.

Actually, the same black suit, either double breasted or single, is worn for both weddings (guests) and funerals. Black tie for funerals, and white/white+gray stripe or pattern with/without dove gray vest for weddings is the average male guest/family other than father of brid and groom attire. The father of the bride and groom are usually in mornings, as the ceremony itself is set at around 3 to 4 in the afternoon at the latest. The groom himself are also usually in mornings, but these days, they may be wearing colored tail suits as well.

As far as mourning clothes go, though it depends on the region, traditionally, it was dull gray (called nibi iro, meaning dull color) or white.
Black came into the category of formal wear ans also mourning wear only after the Meiji Restoration in 1868, when the Japanese Imperial Court, starting in 1871, began adapting the dress codes of European (basically British) courts, due to the introduction of western clothes into the Imperial Court. Before that, the formal dress code was based on the dress code that was proclaimed originally in 757. It was adapted and changed over the years, but the colors for the higher ranks basically remained the same, with mikado brown for the Emperor, mikado yellow for the Crown Prince, and deep purple that almost looks black, for the princes and highest rank nobles. Black cloth was very difficult to produce until the arrival of chemical dyes from Europe in the mid 19thC. Until then, the dyes used in Japan were natural--extracts from plants and trees, and various minerals--which meant that the darker colors could be produced only by dyeing the threads/fabric repeatedly.

The general dress code in effect here is a modification of the western dress code adapted and modified to fit its needs by the Imperial Court. If one is to attend a social function at the Imperial Palace, then, the issued invitation will include information on what the dress code is, and the invitee can call the Imperial Household Agency with any questions they have on the appropriate attire, including what the equivalents are just in case the person doesn't have the exact required clothes. We are fortunate in that both western clothes and wafuku (Japanese traditional clothes e.g. kimonos) are acceptable.

In regards to weddings in Japan, if the entire wedding party comprises of the marriage ceremony and a reception afterwards, then, in most cases, the dress codes are observed pretty strictly for the family, and by the majority of the guests even if they are invited only to the reception. However, if the reception is held completely independely from the ceremony, then the clothes of the guests may be less formal. You will also have to take note that it is customary for a costume change to take place during the reception, for the bride at least, not always just once, but multiple times on occasions. This is called o-ironaoshi, color change. It's a custom from the days when the wedding reception was held over 2-3 days, so the marriage would be consumated, and the bride changed her kimono the next day to that of a married woman. Nowadays, this serves as a good excuse for the bride to wear both western wedding dresses and traditional Japanese wedding kimono lol The groom isn't required to change his clothes along with the bride, but it's more often the case that he does, these days.

Anyway, since boushi mania is getting married in the US, it should be a special and commemorative attire for him and his bride, but doesn't have to be in accordance with Japanese customs, all it has to be is to be acceptable in the US. The reception in Japan can be as formal or informal an affair as the bride and groom wants it to be, because without the actual marriage ceremony, there aren't any concrete social rules that define how these types of receptions should be done.

 

[avedwards]

That's a fair point. As it happens, I do have a French-cuffed shirt with a turndown collar, but it has subtle woven stripes throughout, which makes it (to me) more informal. As for my options here, they do sell attached-collar morning shirts with either a fairly substantial(!) wing collar or spread turndown collar, but given my lack of commitment to a cutaway or stroller at the present time, perhaps it makes better economic sense to go with something I can easily change depending on the level of formality. (Schrödinger's collar?) I did check with the shirt-makers at Kintetsu Department Store, and they said they could do a detachable-collar shirt at no extra cost--though they weren't clear if that included the collar and studs or not.

I'm afraid I would say no to your shirt if the stripes extend themselves onto the collar and the cuffs. A plain white shirt with a turndown collar and french cuffs should be acceptable for both morning dress (though slightly less formal than a wing collar) and a stroller. In the UK these can be found for as little as £25.

 

[boushi_mania]

I'll see what I can do about the shirt. Oddly enough, it seems that off-the-rack shirts with French cuffs are hard to come by at the moment. They must be "out" this season. [huh]

I do think I've made some progress on the waistcoat front, though. I've looked into having one made, and it appears that I can have it done for around $250. Kinda pricey... but if I manage to make that the most expensive item I need, then so be it.

On the other hand, I did find some nice ready-to-wear examples from Pakeman Catto & Carter:
S.B., dove grey
D.B., dove grey
S.B., buff
D.B., buff

All four seem quite nice, though I have reservations about the length. No measurements are supplied, but my gut feeling is that these are pretty long.
EDIT: Got an email back from them. The 38R is 24 inches long(!), which is about 3 inches longer than the vest on my 3-piece suit. Guess I'll pass...