Please Explain High End Selvedge Jeans to Me

[OneEyeMan]

As I said right at the start - this is a Troll thread - started by you, and now you say it's "extremely ridiculous".

You don't believe jeans are worth paying money for. Fair enough, so why ask the question?

And we are the stupid ones for bothering to answer.

I would suggest that this thread is closed

My original intention of the post was to learn what makes selvedge denim jeans better than the garden variety denim jeans, not to troll.
So far, nothing in this thread leads me to believe that selvedge denim is better than just plain old denim or that heavy is better than thin.
For me, fit is paramount among the attributes of denim jeans. Regular old $40 Lee straight cut jeans fit me perfectly.
That's the absolute bottom line.
Lenny

 

[pipvh]

Subjectively, high-end jeans, like most high-end things, look better. They don't look cheap, mass-produced and they don't look like what everybody else is wearing. If these are criteria you value, then obviously your $40 Lees are perfect for you. But as you are posting on FL, the assumption has to be that you care about individualism, quality and vintage style, just like all us selvage chaps.

It's the difference between an Aero jacket and a mall jacket, as someone else said. If you can tell the difference, you can also tell the difference between low end and high end jeans.

On the other hand you might not want to spend $150+ on jeans, and that, of course, is an eminently sane point of view...

 

[Baron Kurtz]

For me, there is simply no mall store, cheap pair of jeans that are cut like 1920s/30s jeans. If there were, I would be wearing them. As it is, high end selvedge - typically Japanese, but LVC do well too - is the way to go for the look I want. also, I do like the added touch of the coloured selvedge.

 

[ButteMT61]

Again, most all things we buy and discuss here are found in cheaper iterations that might last as long or longer. That's not the point, is it?
There is no way to tell someone - to explain it. You either are willing to take the dive and try, or you're not. I won't talk anyone in or out of anything here.
So I'd suggest that the curious either try it or keep buying the less expensive stuff they already like. This sort of bickering gets tedious...

 

[schitzo]

Frankly, if you're happy with something very cheap that's a rare victory. Embrace it! In such a circumstance why even entertain thoughts of how green the grass in the next field might be?

The only reason I can see for entertaining such thoughts is that you're not actually fulfilled by the 'cheap mass produced clones' - as pipvh so eloquently put it.

As for wanting to 'learn' here. If members pipe up with their first hand experiences, as a few have, and you then opt to completely disregard all of that input I would suggest your learning style could use some tweeking - if as you say - it is indeed a desire to learn something that's motivating your posts

 

[Edward]

For me, there is simply no mall store, cheap pair of jeans that are cut like 1920s/30s jeans. If there were, I would be wearing them. As it is, high end selvedge - typically Japanese, but LVC do well too - is the way to go for the look I want. also, I do like the added touch of the coloured selvedge.

That's about the size of it for me too. I used to wear cheaper denim, but the mainstream simply stopped doing the fit I like in the leg (not to mention dropped the waist on just about every pair so they felt like girls' hipsters). I don't like paying through the nose for anything, but when it comes down to it there is no point in buying something I don't like because it's cheaper.... I certainly consider the Freddies worth the money. They're 14oz afaik; whatever the specs, they're plenty heavy enough for me. For my needs, I'd be wasting my money paying more for heavier denim, because I simply don't need it.

Leather jackets - I'm in, High end guitars - I'm in, Denim jeans (they're just pants) - Im out, I just don't get it!![huh]

lol Intentional play on words? (Over here, saying something is "pants" implies it is naff, wick, rubbish, substandard). Made me smirk, anyhow.

Actually, just saw those Freddie's, they I get. Maybe I'm in after all. Perhaps I should get a pair. Do they fit true to size?

They do. If you're looking at the Forties ones, I'sd suggest maybe going up a size for wearing with braces, but that's to personal taste. I just wish they would do the Forties model without the braces buttons so they could be worn with a belt. I love my pairs, but I would like to also have some I could wear belted. I much prefer the higher waist and wider leg over the Fifties model.

It doesn't, of course, but it's good marketing. I guess with selvedge side seams you can be sure the fabric was cut on the bias, but the value of this to the general punter, I'm not sure.

It reminds me of the old guitar player's debate in which some hold a bolt-on neck (a la a Fender Stratocaster) is inferior to a glued-in neck (a la Gibson Les Paul) on the basis that the latter tends to appear on more expensive guitars, while the former is available at all price points, including the very cheapest.... Seems to me that selvedge isn't a guarantee of higher quality (I've encountered low end selvedge that isn't as good as the non-selvedge Prison Blues I have owned), but it does tend to more often appear on higher end stuff, I suppose because all these additional little details cost money to add in. No good if one is cutting corners, but perhaps a necessary addition to give something "extra" to convince the market they are getting more for their money by adding something more they can see.

Where does the extra 10 Oz of weight go if the 23 Oz jeans are "exactly the same" as 14 Oz? Into the aether? Somewhere over the Persil? The extra weight was all "body" and not extra cotton per square metre?

Agreed on all points.... the question then becomes one of whether the 21oz offers something extra to the individual, or is it over-engineering? I mean, I'm sure Horween could tan a hide to the point where it wore like a Legionary's armour, but most folks probably wouldn't have a use for a jacket that tough.

Finally, the good Dr says what I've been thinking all along.
I just didn't want to say it for fear of getting my head bit off!
At best, selvedge keeps the ends of the fabric from fraying.
But who cares any way, the edges never show.

Where it's visible is if you cuff them - as selvedge fans generally do. But yes, alone it's not the guarantor of quality.

As for me, I have much better things to spend my hard earned money on.
Lenny

Don't we all, but where's the fun in buying only what we need?

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

Fact is that my 21oz Ironheart is thicker and heavier then my 15oz Nudies, and they are heavier/thicker then a coupple of cheap lees. I have washed the ironhearts many times and still ask people to just feel them and everyone understand instantly what the "fuzz" is all about. The heavier oz ones will always be heavier then the lighter ones and what MM says about them washing away is simply not true. Offcourse with enough washes any garment would eventually vanish, but this is so far from something that remotely adds to the discussion that we can just leave it alone.

The IH are very thick and they get very warm in the summer. They are for people that wants warm pants in the winter and/or people who likes to wear heavy-duty clothes for some reason.

The selvedge isnt about the edge, its about using the best part of the roll and not criss cross to save fabric (and that might make them twist uneven after wash). The selvedge just shows that it is infact this part that is used.

There is flimsy selvedge aswell. Jeans that are prewashed and sandblasted.

I would get something around 15oz that has all the other charecteristics that you like and see if you find them more premium with a better drape.

The thing about not washing is just that it adds personal patina alot faster and more clear (since you wear on the same folds all the time, where a washing will flatten out the fabric and the folds might appear in new places and therefore the same fold will not get as worn = as white against the darker denim so ther wont be as much contrast) and this is all about looks and nothing else.

 

[Mark Ricketts]

I had to chuckle at pipvh's view: care about being an individual, just like all the rest of us selvage chaps.

 

[pipvh]

I had to chuckle at pipvh's view: care about being an individual, just like all the rest of us selvage chaps.

We're alone in the crowd, I tell you! No, I think I was trying to say that though there are a lot of selvage addicts on here, they're surprisingly few and far between out there in the real world (or at least in my admittedly out-of-the-way part of it).

But anyway, what could be more ruggedly individual than, you know, copying the style of rugged individuals...?

 

[nabottle]

I've always loved Levi's. Different cuts, price ranges, etc. I've learned a lot from this thread and before I read all of these posts, I would never have considered buying denim in these price ranges. But ******** it! I've got to give it a shot now. All I can ask is 1.What are some of your favorite brands? 2.How often should I wash them? and 3. What size should I buy compared to what I usually wear in lower-end denim?

I've learned a lot on this forum and the knowledge has served me well so far. Thanks to everyone who has an opinion and states it on here.

 

[Jeff M]

Couldn't find the info on their web site. What weight are Freddies?

 

[ButteMT61]

I've been looking at Pike Bros - one that I don't see mentioned here a lot. I like some of the Iron Heart's too. I saw them at Self Edge in HollyWeird.
I have RRL, Lucky, and Levis thus far. Like them all. But none are heavy. The denim IMHO looks nicer than the cheapos. In fact, I just put 6 pairs of other jeans in the Good Will bag for the week. Just depends on what you want.
As to sizing, that's a freakin' nightmare, and it varies greatly from brand/style across the board. It's the one thing that's a PITA and takes some effort to do - assuming you can't go somewhere to try on the things you're considering. If you're buying sight-unseen online, do your homework first. I reckon that's why eBay has so much of this stuff...

 

[nabottle]

Thanks a lot, Butte! I appreciate the info.

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

I would say:
1.What are some of your favorite brands?
Nudie, Iron Heart, Flat Head, but I would just get a pair that has the cut your after. You can read some here:
http://www.selfedge.com/brands_we_carry.php
And others will chime in here, I already know forumers love Sugar Cane

2.How often should I wash them?
If you want more contrasting fades, wear for as long as possible before first wash. This only aplies to dry-denim wich means they are unwashed.
They really dont have to smell for this, it depends alot on if you tend to wipe your food-hands on the jeans,hoe often you change underwear and how much you sweat and basically how messy you get them. Personally I am very clean and usually dont sit on the ground and stuff (its kinda disgusting in the city IMHO) and I never wipe food on the jeans so I have gone for a year without a problem.

The biggest problem for me is the color transfer on the sofa, but you could soak to get rid of the most dye. But there is also no problem in washing once first and then jut try and not wash them too often and they will turn out ok, but not with the most contrasting fades.

3. What size should I buy compared to what I usually wear in lower-end denim?
If they are sanforized you should be able to get the same size. I did this for my IH and it worked. If not sanforrized then I usually try out the same size as I normally wear and if they are a little big then that is perfect. I would not get a tight fit non sanforized dry denim as they will probably not fit after a wash.

 

[Edward]

Couldn't find the info on their web site. What weight are Freddies?

I can't find it anywhere either - maybe email them? (Or try the Facebook page). I do know that Prison Blues used superb (non-selvedge), hard-wearing denim that comes in at 14.75, and to my hand the Freddies feel a touch heavier.

 

[Edward]

2.How often should I wash them?

The patina thing isn't so much my bag: I wish I could keep my Freddies looking new forever. I like the uniform, dark colour. Same end result, though - don't wash them every time they're worn, only when needed. A tiny bit of me is, once in a blue moon, tempted to think about the notion of dry cleaning, but really.... I just can't quite credit the idea of dry cleaning jeans. Mind you, different strokes for different folks.... last time I dropped into the dry cleaners to pick up some trousers I was having hemmed, there was a guy in front of me, probably mid Twenties, leaving in half a dozen very ordinary t shirts for dry cleaning. I mean, "srsly, wtf?", as the young people might have it.... [huh]

 

[GriffDeLaGriff]

I would never dryclean my jeans. Where I live it would probably cost 50% of the jeans newprice.

I just wear until they really need a wash. Small spots can be removed with a damp cloth and I used to wet-wipe the very end of my jeans from time to time during the period up to the first wash.

 

[nabottle]

I would say:
1.What are some of your favorite brands?
Nudie, Iron Heart, Flat Head, but I would just get a pair that has the cut your after. You can read some here:
http://www.selfedge.com/brands_we_carry.php
And others will chime in here, I already know forumers love Sugar Cane



2.How often should I wash them?
If you want more contrasting fades, wear for as long as possible before first wash. This only aplies to dry-denim wich means they are unwashed.
They really dont have to smell for this, it depends alot on if you tend to wipe your food-hands on the jeans,hoe often you change underwear and how much you sweat and basically how messy you get them. Personally I am very clean and usually dont sit on the ground and stuff (its kinda disgusting in the city IMHO) and I never wipe food on the jeans so I have gone for a year without a problem.

The biggest problem for me is the color transfer on the sofa, but you could soak to get rid of the most dye. But there is also no problem in washing once first and then jut try and not wash them too often and they will turn out ok, but not with the most contrasting fades.

3. What size should I buy compared to what I usually wear in lower-end denim?
If they are sanforized you should be able to get the same size. I did this for my IH and it worked. If not sanforrized then I usually try out the same size as I normally wear and if they are a little big then that is perfect. I would not get a tight fit non sanforized dry denim as they will probably not fit after a wash.

Thanks a lot Griff! Very informative and precise. I love it.

 

[ButteMT61]

I would never dryclean my jeans. Where I live it would probably cost 50% of the jeans newprice.I just wear until they really need a wash. Small spots can be removed with a damp cloth and I used to wet-wipe the very end of my jeans from time to time during the period up to the first wash.

Yeah, one thing I have never and will never do - dry clean denim. No how, no way. It's meant to be beatup and washed. And beatup again.

 

[Grayland]

I would never dryclean my jeans. Where I live it would probably cost 50% of the jeans newprice.

I just wear until they really need a wash. Small spots can be removed with a damp cloth and I used to wet-wipe the very end of my jeans from time to time during the period up to the first wash.

Why is that, Griff? Is it a chemical/sustainable issue?