Please advise : Collar lapel snaps

[TartuWolf]

@Canuck Panda Yup, custom measurements are not a problem. It's more or less MTM as far as I understood so far. Current plan is 49-42-45 chest-waist-hem (cm).

 

[jeo]

@jeo
FW sunset would be a big no no from my perspective solely due to the location/placement of the chest pocket. Weird zipper placement too.

Ok. Where would you place the chest pocket? What size? What angle?

(I disagree btw. I think the FW Sunset pocket placement, size and angles are flawless and beautiful)

"These jackets that are an amalgamation of styles tend to look weird"
A few counter arguments / thoughts:
1 . There is sure a discussion to be had on what is a "quintessential" MC or aviator. Different periods from different makers had different ideas of which features are mandatory I guess.

There is definitely a discussion to be had, especially when you’re straddling the line so closely between styles.

My post wasn’t to discourage or argue. Just to inform. I’ve seen many “Frankenstein” jackets throughout the years end up in the classifieds.

Having said that there are certain features that are more moto in nature. Zip sleeves are one of them. Button cuffs on the other hand go both ways. A good example are the CHP style jackets that have button cuffs. Those are motorcycle jackets. With these jackets it’s the other features that cement them as motorcycle jackets.

I don’t think I’ve seen a jacket that is like what you’re describing. Nothing is set in stone though so I’m not saying it can’t work. If the design, size, placement and other features are all done well and tastefully, it very well may work.

You just need a REAL good eye for design and also have a really good understanding of the history of all these different styles so you know how you can break the “rules”.

Thedi is spectacular at this.

 

[TartuWolf]

@jeo
No prob, I didn't take it as discouragement or an argument, were just discussing stuff on this lovely forum
I'm thankful that you are engaging with me.

Where would you place the chest pocket? What size? What angle?

PURELY personal opinion / taste:
I would not slant the handwarmer pockets so heavily. I prefer them vertical or almost vertical. It makes more sense if we are talking about jackets that are around belt level length. Otherwise the whole "handwarmer" part becomes uncomfortable to use.
Placing the chest pocket so low and so close to the handwarmer pockets means anything you put in there will start bumping your hand when you put it into the handwarmer pocket. Assuming the chest pocket is not extremely shallow/tiny. And esthetically I think it is ideal if the chest pocket is parallel and close to the lapel when partially zipped. Perfect example of that is the second photo in my original post.
I also dislike the extreme front drop of the FW model.
Not a fan of the main zipper curvature either.
Anyway, definitely not a model for my taste. But I have total respect for your taste

I'd probably consider @Pandemic custom Field Leathers as the most perfect cross-zip I've seen so far (although personally I would add .5-1" in body length and choose a different leather).
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/field-leathers-mc-mlc-jacket.103718/post-2791168

Regarding the whole design thing - I'm not creating stuff from scratch here, that's just how the model that I picked is and I like how it looks. Might be a monstrosity in the eyes of some, but looks lovely to me.
Once I actually order it, get it, review and pot fit pictures - then you folks can decide yourselves how the “Frankenstein” turned out.

Thedi is spectacular at this.

Haven't seen a Thedi yet that I would want myself, but I have huge respect for the maker. In a way for me his work seems as high end as it gets, works of art of the highest class.

 

[marker2037]

Do you have a photo of the base jacket you are customizing?

 

[Aloysius]

I dare say “total customization” is often a recipe for disaster, and at least on paper the list of features causes me to raise an eyebrow a bit.

It’s sometimes said that the difference between the cheaper and more expensive (true) bespoke tailors in London is that the latter will push back a bit more at customer suggestions. I think that‘s generally a good thing.

 

[Marc mndt]

Placing the chest pocket so low and so close to the handwarmer pockets means anything you put in there will start bumping your hand when you put it into the handwarmer pocket. Assuming the chest pocket is not extremely shallow/tiny. And esthetically I think it is ideal if the chest pocket is parallel and close to the lapel when partially zipped.

It's not a chest pocket, it's a D pocket zipper (which is placed lower than a chest pocket).

Here's some vintage examples. The first two clearly show the difference between chest pocket and D pocket placement.

Also, the d pocket doesn't obstruct the handwarmer pocket. The pic below shows show where my house keys rest which I've put into the d pocket. You don't know they're there when putting your hand into the handwarmer pocket.

 

[jeo]

@jeo
No prob, I didn't take it as discouragement or an argument, were just discussing stuff on this lovely forum
I'm thankful that you are engaging with me.

No doubt man that’s what this place is for.

PURELY personal opinion / taste:
I would not slant the handwarmer pockets so heavily. I prefer them vertical or almost vertical. It makes more sense if we are talking about jackets that are around belt level length. Otherwise the whole "handwarmer" part becomes uncomfortable to use.
Placing the chest pocket so low and so close to the handwarmer pockets means anything you put in there will start bumping your hand when you put it into the handwarmer pocket. Assuming the chest pocket is not extremely shallow/tiny. And esthetically I think it is ideal if the chest pocket is parallel and close to the lapel when partially zipped. Perfect example of that is the second photo in my original post.

Not going to comment as I don’t own this jacket but I can’t imagine anything you put in the chest pocket being felt in the hand warmers.

Edited. Didn’t see @Marc mndt’s post showing what I suspected.

I also dislike the extreme front drop of the FW model.

Now you’re talking about the cut. Different discussion.

I'd probably consider @Pandemic custom Field Leathers as the most perfect cross-zip I've seen so far (although personally I would add .5-1" in body length and choose a different leather).
https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/field-leathers-mc-mlc-jacket.103718/post-2791168

Regarding the whole design thing - I'm not creating stuff from scratch here, that's just how the model that I picked is and I like how it looks.

Ah I see. So you’re going for a moto style just no snaps on the lapels. I’m assuming the model you’re basing it on is the pacific. Not a monstrosity in my eyes. Definitely a moto jacket though.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Vanson Japanese version:

Basically the striped down "Perfecto" version and then take away the coin pocket and hide the collar snaps:

 

[Aloysius]

I’m assuming the model you’re basing it on is the pacific. Not a monstrosity in my eyes. Definitely a moto jacket though.

This jacket looks well made but visually ‘off’ in every detail including its shape. That’s just me though.

Something that looks ‘off’ would annoy me more than an outright monstrosity.

On the other hand isn’t this the jacket that has a 44” hem for size 38? So maybe it is indeed a monstrosity.

 

[jeo]

@Aloysius Can’t speak to the cut. Perhaps it is a monstrosity. There are plenty of jackets out there where the design looks good but the cut is horrible. Some Japanese stuff comes to mind.

As for the design, I’m with you man, I’m not too keen, but I don’t think there’s anything technically “wrong” with this design. Maybe you can say the chest pocket is too large as it looks like it’s about to touch the top of the armpit, but it’s close. Not anything that I would say stands out like a sore thumb.

 

[Aloysius]

@Aloysius Can’t speak to the cut. Perhaps it is a monstrosity. There are plenty of jackets out there where the design looks good but the cut is horrible. Some Japanese stuff comes to mind.

In the process of searching to check whether I was right (I was), I discovered a few amusing things.

Pandemic’s Field jacket that inspired his Simmons order… was ordered because Pandemic had first ordered the Simmons jacket Tartu is ordering and this is how it fit:

When asked, Simmons went on to insist that this is how the jacket is supposed to fit! Eventually the bad PR of the TFL thread seemed to pressure them into allowing a refund.

He then made the sensible decision to order elsewhere instead and got a fantastic jacket.

I wonder if we’re about to see this cycle repeat.

 

[Marc mndt]

The Aero Bird of prey is a great aviator pattern. Subtle front drop, nicely curved lapels, not 'too busy'. Much more refined than the SB Pacific imo.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-birds-of-prey.101552/post-2708633

 

[Salmosalar]

I prefer invisible snaps on aviators lapels. Both functional and looks good. My aviator jackets don't have any snaps and they drive me nuts when they flop around. And that's why I don't wear them much.

This! I always have them on both collar and lapels now - but hidden if I want them to be less moto - latest FL has these….and also epaulettes !

 

[handymike]

It's not a chest pocket, it's a D pocket zipper (which is placed lower than a chest pocket).

Here's some vintage examples. The first two clearly show the difference between chest pocket and D pocket placement.

View attachment 498009

This Ralphs-Pugh is the Ultimate x-zip for me! Only thing I would change is cording for the D pocket instead of only a stitched outline.

 

[Aloysius]

The Aero Bird of prey is a great aviator pattern. Subtle front drop, nicely curved lapels, not 'too busy'. Much more refined than the SB Pacific imo.

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/aero-birds-of-prey.101552/post-2708633

View attachment 498039

Stunning. If I weren't in the queue for an aviator from Greg and wasn't planning to order a different LVC-Aero design (the Rockafella), I would have gone for this.

 

[TartuWolf]

Do you have a photo of the base jacket you are customizing?

 

[TartuWolf]

I dare say “total customization” is often a recipe for disaster, and at least on paper the list of features causes me to raise an eyebrow a bit.

It’s sometimes said that the difference between the cheaper and more expensive (true) bespoke tailors in London is that the latter will push back a bit more at customer suggestions. I think that‘s generally a good thing.

Yes I have heard this opinion before and in general I agree with it. In this case I'm making no alterations to the model pattern. Just to the materials and measurements.

And yes I know this was the model involved in @Pandemic horrible experience with SB. I've read through that thread. And I'm very sorry it happened to him. I'm sure you can have a nice chuckle and throw in some "I told you so" if mine turns out to be a similar story. But since I'm specifying the measurements and limits in terms of 0.5" then I should have no issues returning it if it turns out to be horrible.

@Marc mndt
Thank you for providing more photos and info regarding the D pocket vs chest pocket. Much more clear, makes what I said invalid. I'm not fond of the look and location of that zip, but that's subjective.

And yes Birds of Pray looks awesome, apart from the d-pocket/chest pocket. Also the back is a half belt. I have a 5* half belt now, want to try a different back with this order. I'm also extremely keen on the hooch hauler, but saving that one for a future order most likely. That would be a more pure aviator.

@jeo
"Now you’re talking about the cut. Different discussion."
Is it? I know you can customize the front drop in some cases, but with these off the rack Japanese jackets it seems to be part of the model/pattern. And all photos I've seen (without looking for exceptions specifically) I've seen this huge front drop in each one.
Please explain what do you mean by cut vs model/pattern.

Thank you for all the responses again folks!

 

[navetsea]

since I like the lapel to roll into shape rather than pressed down with a clear / sharp folding line, so I choose 1 snap on the corner of the lapel only. if available gunmetal color would look more tonal than brass.

hidden snap is only adding to potential complication should the snap need replacement, ideally it would never happen but if the jacket is wet for example and the metal hidden under the leather is oxidizing or whatever, so I prefer pierced through easy to inspect maintain and to replace

also the presence of male snap on the upper chest area of the jacket when fully zipped adding something to blankness, and looks cooler

pocket config is personal taste so you do you, some like the chest pocket to be parallel with the lapel fold, some prefer the chest pocket to be even steeper than the lapel, some prefer the angle to be leaner than the lapel fold, I like leaner angle and low positioned at the chest toward the solar plexus area since there is a hollow space right bellow the pectoral section and before the abdominal section to make the pocket really functional without showing the content.

I guess zip sleeve is going to make it MC and strap cuff is aviator, also curving kidney panel is another motorcycle feature while perhaps aviator has straight rear hem, who cares just call it cross zip.

 

[TartuWolf]

@navetsea Thank you for the thorough response!
Good point regarding the hidden/not hidden snaps in terms of maintenance. Can someone comment whether anyone ever had issues with the snaps and had to, for example, replacement?

And yeah, I'm not really thinking about this project/order in terms of MC vs Aviator but rather as a minimalist cross-zip. And partly picking this model because it has a lot of things different/opposite to my other current jacket (everything buttoned vs everything zipped, half belt vs one piece + kidney panel, no mobility vs shoulder gussets, etc...).

So far I'm thinking I'll go for lapel snaps only, just need to decide whether hidden or not, mainly because of the potential maintenance issue.

 

[Marc mndt]

Can someone comment whether anyone ever had issues with the snaps and had to, for example, replacement?

This one gave way after 70 years, so you'll probably be good until 2093.