Panama Hat Thread

[barrowjh]

Plymouth Panama

I won this Panama this past Thursday on da' bay, it is a llano weave Montecristi:

Brim is 2 1/2 inches with a nicely done backweave; crown (as shaped) 5 inches at the highest points. WPSI is about 450 in the side of the crown (19x24) and 500 out in the middle of the brim (22x23) measured in several places, very consistent weave, nicely woven. Figure a seller would claim it as a 500 wpsi.

Seller got it here in two days flat (won Thursday, arrived in Maryville TN Saturday, KC to TN). The sweatband is backed all around by the oilskin (early plastic) liner to prevent sweat-through, a quality marker used in the late 1940s - mid 1950s or thereabouts.

Here's a photo with incandescent light added:

happy me

I needed a hat like this, fills a niche that might allow me to now part with another vintage hat just as nice that is just a tad too big.

 

[Consumer]

This is an absolutely beautiful lid!

 

[Mark Butcher]

Nice find.

 

[barrowjh]

Thanks, Consumer. I shouldn't have bid on it, but I just cannot lay off hats this nice and the bidding stayed below $40 right up to the end. I may have an addiction problem . . .

 

[Aureliano]

Beautiful, John!

 

[RBH]

Very nice JB! Hope to see it soon!

 

[barrowjh]

Thanks Mark, Aureliano, and Rusty. I may bring it next time I visit Buckaroo; that pug has hooks on the ends but it is also tacked directly to the hat with thread in a few spots. I prefer a ribbon, say, 11 ligne or 14, and then I can cover it with pugs if I need to change colors on command. So you are likely to see it.

 

[Consumer]

barrowjh,
I know what you mean by the "addiction problem". I've been on the Bay for years searching and buying. Those hat boxes are now everywhere!
But it's a heck of a lot of fun!!

 

[Mystic]

Panamas always start out that light color but age to a "natural color." You can order them in various colors from that seller as well. Just email him what color you like and he can get it for you. He even has them in black and dark browns if you would like. The price will not be $15 though. These are just his sale hats.

How do you compare these "sale" hats to other panama's? What would be the normal going rate for a hat like these?
I have no clue as to what thread count corresponds to what price range and no clue as to what points make a good panama.

 

[barrowjh]

Panama Bob's (Robert Weber) site provides some background information and so do other sites like Brent Black's site. You may have to go back to the beginning of this thread and read through and eventually pick up on some basic ideas, the difference between the simpler, quicker, and less expensive brisa weave common to hats finished in Cuenca, Ecuador vs the more detailed, beautiful, time-consuming and expensive llano weave commonly from the villages near Montecristi, Ecuador. For yard work or at the beach you might not want to risk an expensive Montecristi, so it is common to own one or more of both types for wearing in different situations. Weaves per square inch or wpsi is a count of straw in one direction multiplied times the count in a 90 degree different direction; Panama Bob is now using just a row count. 20 rows in one direction times 20 the other way is a 400 wpsi, or you could just say 20 rows. The llano weave is almost never that 'square' - it would more likely be 22 rows in one direction times 18 the other for approximately 400 wpsi. Is the seller giving you the optimistic row count or the more conservative one? I don't know. Tightness of the weave is only one factor in determining quality, and then of course the overall style of the hat matters. Most of us acquired what little knowledge we have by reading these threads, those sites, and maybe a book on the subject, plus there are a few that post here that are involved in the business, or come from that region of the world, and bring greater authenticity to the information here.

 

[Mystic]

Panama Bob's (Robert Weber) site provides some background information and so do other sites like Brent Black's site. You may have to go back to the beginning of this thread and read through and eventually pick up on some basic ideas, the difference between the simpler, quicker, and less expensive brisa weave common to hats finished in Cuenca, Ecuador vs the more detailed, beautiful, time-consuming and expensive llano weave commonly from the villages near Montecristi, Ecuador. For yard work or at the beach you might not want to risk an expensive Montecristi, so it is common to own one or more of both types for wearing in different situations. Weaves per square inch or wpsi is a count of straw in one direction multiplied times the count in a 90 degree different direction; Panama Bob is now using just a row count. 20 rows in one direction times 20 the other way is a 400 wpsi, or you could just say 20 rows. The llano weave is almost never that 'square' - it would more likely be 22 rows in one direction times 18 the other for approximately 400 wpsi. Is the seller giving you the optimistic row count or the more conservative one? I don't know. Tightness of the weave is only one factor in determining quality, and then of course the overall style of the hat matters. Most of us acquired what little knowledge we have by reading these threads, those sites, and maybe a book on the subject, plus there are a few that post here that are involved in the business, or come from that region of the world, and bring greater authenticity to the information here.

Thanks for the info....

The reason's for my questions is I kind of thought that by the time i read, researched and studied panama hats in order to gain the knowledge and experience you guys have I would may have missed an opportunity to take advantage of Panama Bob's sale.
I was under the impression when I came accross this site that others sharing experience and knowledge about hats was one of the purposes and attractions of the Fedora Lounge.
If I had a hat shop anywhere in my area it would be a great help to me in learning some things I ask questions about on this forum. If I could personally handle and try on some of the types of hats I ask questions about.....I would not have so "silly" questions.
The closest hat shop I have found is about 50 to 60 miles away and they haven't returned 3 emails about their services or their hats. the 4th email about cleaning and blocking hats was answered by saying they only take care of their own customers.

I have several reasons as to why I am undecided about panama hats other than what I have posted here. I was hoping to resolve one or two of them in order to make the decision to buy one of Panama Bob's hats.

After saying all of that....I will say I have been reading and searching daily until my eyes are tired from reading so many conflicting comments and hat websites.

 

[Aureliano]

This particular thread has very strong opinions, mine included, among its pages. I don't think there are silly questions, they are all valid. I'd say: Think about how much are you willing to spend. Panama hats go from very cheap Cuencas (hats woven in the Cuenca province of Ecuador, generally bleached white) to mid price and super high dollar Montecristi panamas (Produced in the town of Montecristi and Pile in the Manabi province of Ecuador)
Look for a hat that has a nice, smooth and consistent weave pattern, no bumps or knots. Look for an even color. The vueltas and WPI although important, not always make a great hat. I've seen Montecristis with seveal vueltas but the weaving was sloppy. Keep in mind that a fine, tight weave montecristi might not provide the air and ventilation you might desire. For that, a brisa weave Cuenca (loose weave with some space that lets air in) would be better.
Panama Bob offers very good prices and nice hats, (both Cuenca and Montecrisiti) talk to him, be detailed and specific about what you want in terms of style, brim width and quality.
Brent Black and Optimo hats in Chicago offer the very best Montecristis out there. Both cost a lot but if what you want is a fine, luxurious hat, blocked to perfection that's the place to go.
Worth&Worth in NYC offers mid range Montecristis and Cuencas.

 

[bowlerman]

barrowjh-- that is one mighty fine looking panama!

 

[Consumer]

I was curious. Has anyone visited Montecristi, Ecuador? If one were in the region, would it be a worthwhile detour to purchase a hat directly in Montecristi or can one find the same quality/price in the other larger Cities of Quito or Cuenca?

 

[Aureliano]

I was curious. Has anyone visited Montecristi, Ecuador? If one were in the region, would it be a worthwhile detour to purchase a hat directly in Montecristi or can one find the same quality/price in the other larger Cities of Quito or Cuenca?

I've been, several times (my dad, though Argentinean, owned land in Manabi) You can certainly find better hats than those sold in Quito. For Cuencas, Homero Ortega has the finest in my opinion and you can buy them at his stores either in Quito or Cuenca.
Ironically and sadly, since Ecuadorians (My mom was Ecuadorian. I grew up between Quito and Buenos Aires) don't give a darn about these hats, all the finest ones go to foreign markets. 2 years ago in Quito, I couldn't find anything half decent.

 

[1961MJS]

...I grew up between Quito and Buenos Aires) don't give a darn about these hats, all the finest ones go to foreign markets. 2 years ago in Quito, I couldn't find anything half decent.

Hi Aureliano

From what I just looked up on Wikipedia, Ecuador can be a sunny hot place, perfect for wearing their hats. Why don't they like them? I think that here in Kansas, we don't good beef, not because we don't like it, but because the people in NYC, Chicago, and LA will pay more for it. Dodge City is FAMOUS for the feed lots too.

Later

 

[Aureliano]

Only indigenous people wear panamas and wool felt hats. You see the occasional older man wearing one in the summer (temperature and weather are drastically different between regions. The coast and Oriental sides are hot and humid, particularly in the summer, the Andean region its cold but gets a fair amount of warm weather year around) Younger generations prefer baseball (soccer over there ) style caps. A lot of south american culture is influenced by USA trends.

 

[Consumer]

Aureliano,
Thank you for your input and advice!!

 

[Lt.Tom]

I'm at a conference in St. Augustine this week, and this afternoon I bought my first Panama. It won't be my last.

I got it at the Panama Hat Company (mypanamahat.com). They call it their "Classic Fedora". Better pictures when I get back home.............

.

 

[randooch]

Lt. Tom, that looks just right on you!