P-51 crash at Reno Air Races

[Fletch]

Sad news: Officials in Reno are sorting things out and say the death toll now stands at 9. Previously it was thought only 3 had been killed.

More sad news: a T-28 Trojan crashed today at an air show in Martinsburg, WV. No official information on dead or injured, but it is thought the pilot, part of a T-28 aerobatic team, was killed.

 

[dhermann1]

I haven't seen any comments that were uncivil in any way, just ardent and sincere.
The thing that bugs me the most is not the risk the flyers take, that's part of aviation. But I hate to see spectators hurt. I don't think running the risk of being killed is part of the normal evaluation process for people going to spectator events, or at least it shouldn't be.
It's a tough issue. Of course it's absurd to say nobody can take any kind of risk with their own life. But I think it's wrong to endanger others.
And my feeling about the destruction of the warbirds is just because it KILLS me every time I see another one lost forever.

 

[ButteMT61]

Agree with your points. I'm overly sensitive maybe because I've lived a rather risky life at times. Since I became a father, I cut way back on such activities, but Can't imagine living differently!
Glad you took the posts for their intent. People need to have open and honest discussions.
Certainly we need to make fans safe, as much as is possible.
But yeah, the loss of the planes sucks. Still, I'd rather see 'em fly.

I haven't seen any comments that were uncivil in any way, just ardent and sincere.
The thing that bugs me the most is not the risk the flyers take, that's part of aviation. But I hate to see spectators hurt. I don't think running the risk of being killed is part of the normal evaluation process for people going to spectator events, or at least it shouldn't be.
It's a tough issue. Of course it's absurd to say nobody can take any kind of risk with their own life. But I think it's wrong to endanger others.
And my feeling about the destruction of the warbirds is just because it KILLS me every time I see another one lost forever.

 

[Atticus Finch]

For what it is worth, the highest automibile accident rate per miles driven clearly belongs to elderly drivers. In fact, some studys show that sixty-five year old drivers have about the same accident rate as new teenage drivers. Eighty-five year old drivers have four times the accident rate of teenagers.

I'm not sure how this translates to elderly pilots, if at all, but I can't help but think that some of the same principles apply to both occupations.

AF

 

[Tango Yankee]

And my feeling about the destruction of the warbirds is just because it KILLS me every time I see another one lost forever.

The other side of the coin is that no one would ever be able to see and hear a vintage warbird in flight again. That, too, would be a loss. And if they were all relegated to sitting in their owner's hangars, what good does that do anybody?

A motorcycle magazine focused on classic and vintage motorcycles I subscribe to has the motto "Ride 'em, Don't Hide 'em." Seems like a good motto to me.

But as I said, this is a long-running debate regarding vintage aircraft and vintage machines in general. Both sides of the debate have their reasons for taking that side, and honestly, both sides are right. No matter which way it goes, something is lost forever.

As for the risk people take by being spectators, air shows and races are by no means the only places that spectators take a risk simply by being there. Auto and motorcycle races have their dangers as well. Heck, from what I've gathered the main reason many people go to NASCAR races is in hopes of seeing a crash; they just don't want to see it up close and personal, but there is always that risk that bits will get into the audience.

Regards,
Tom

 

[dhermann1]

Well, I think we've defined the parameters of the discussion. It will be interesting to see what kinds of reactions these two incidents bring about.
I remember when there was a jet crash at Farnborough a few years ago (I think it was there?) when a jet was moving toward the stands, they changed the procedure so that at no time would an aircraft be moving TOWARDS the grandstands, so that if there was an incident the plane's momentum would carry it OUT of danger. I don't know how they'd implement something like this at a pylon race, other than making people sit further away.
And hey, don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of these machines getting out there, but I think some of what is done with them should have a bit of a rethink.

 

[MPicciotto]

Well let me say right off before anything else that when I posted asking people to keeping things civil I saw some harsher words in one thread (since edited to a very nice piece) and Fletch was writing his as I was mine, so no Fletch it wasn't you. That out of the way...

A curious conumdrum for air racing. The very sport that is now endangering these aircraft as dhermann1 has pointed out is in fact the same sport that preserved them. In 1946 when air craft were being sold for the value of the fuel in the tanks & being recycled into siding, lawn furniture and kitchen pots air racers were buying up these craft and using them. A great many aircraft were preserved because of that. It's an interesting situation now where these races are causing the loss of aircraft. Not an opinion folks, just an observation. It seems to me there are people here to cover the opinion parts

Matt

P.S. When the Corsair went down in SC the accompanying aircraft was the B-25J Panchito, with the pilot's son on board. My friend Donnie is a crew chief with Panchito and was on board for that flight. He describes it as one of the hardest things in his life, trying to shield the son and also facing the rest of the family when they landed.

 

[Effingham]

Apparently the pilot was 80 years old. With all due respect to capable people of that age, flying 500 mph 50 feet off the deck when you just don't have the eyes or reflexes of a 20 year old might not be the greatest idea of all time.

Except in this case, it looks like it was (1) mechanical failure -- a part came off the tail assembly of the plane, and (2) the very skilled pilot was able to keep the plane from flying straight into the grandstands -- he hit some boxed seats, but kept the plane from going farther out.

 

[mflemming]

I don't know enough to comment on whether the loss of a trim tab would be enough to bring down that sort of aircraft. In any case the NTSB has said that it will take months to determine the cause, we just don't know at this point.

Re elderly drivers: pilots have to pass physicals that the general population doesn't so the stats probably are not directly comparable.

 

[fortworthgal]

A very tragic situation, any way you look at it.

 

[Jaguar66]

Apparently the pilot was 80 years old. With all due respect to capable people of that age, flying 500 mph 50 feet off the deck when you just don't have the eyes or reflexes of a 20 year old might not be the greatest idea of all time.

This reasoning is certainly a fallacy. Probably comes under "Negative Conclusion from Affirmative Premisses" Some old people don't have good eyesight or good reflexes. Pilots with poor vision and reflexes crash planes. Therefore old people crash planes.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/negfroma.html

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html

 

[Tomasso]

The problem with pilots of that age is not their ability to operate the aircraft but the likelihood of them having a medical incident while in flight. Face it, when you get up there in age you can stroke out at any moment, whether flying a plane or tying your shoes. I vaguely recall Chuck Yeager expressing the same in an interview some time ago.

 

[mflemming]

I don't see a fallacy in pointing out that there are no 80 (or in this case 74) year olds who have the physical capabilities of an average 20 year old.

I expect that everyone following this thread has seen the "missing trim tab" photo and the "empty cockpit" photo. While we clearly DO NOT KNOW what happened, the fact that the pilot does not appear to have been in the normal upright position just before the crash is not consistent with the "skilled pilot avoiding the crowd" scenario.

 

[Jaguar66]

I don't see a fallacy in pointing out that there are no 80 (or in this case 74) year olds who have the physical capabilities of an average 20 year old.

Unfortunately another fallacy. Here the assumtion is that A. youth (average 20 year old) guarantees that you are more physically capable than anyone age 74 or older. Therefore, B an older age pilot will lead to more airplane crashes.

A is not true, (ie no 74 year olds are as physically capable as an average 20 year old) I will point to Jack LaLanne who at 74 was more physically capable than the average fit 20 year old.

and B, the conclusion is not a fact (youthful pilots have fewer accidents than older pilots)

The evidence so far points to a broken trim tab, leading to inability to control the aircraft, which may have created a sudden unexpected ascent possibly creating a negative G-force possibly leading to a blackout. Whether this possible blackout lead to further loss of control which caused the plane to crash into the crowd (versus somewhere else) is yet to be determined.

 

[Treetopflyer]

You can Monday morning quarterback this all you want, but when it comes to aviation mishaps you never know until the investigation is complete. I am not so sure the loss of a trim tab would be all that detrimental, but I am not a P-51 pilot, so I cannot speak about that. I am however a pilot, and as pointed out by Stearman, the 1,000 and 10,000 marks make a difference. I have seen pilots that are too old to still be flying but their egos let them think that they can still handle it.

Too many classic aircraft and too many good men have died because they think they are still 20 years old and can handle the physical demands of flying a high performance aircraft. We would not let some of these guys drive a car but for some reason we still let them fly high performance aircraft, historically significant aircraft at that.

As for the flight physical, it is a simple physical. Is not like you have to run a certain distance or do pull ups or anything like that. So to say that these guys can pass a flight physical simply means that they have a heart beat and they can breathe.

My two cents.

 

[Atticus Finch]

As for the flight physical, it is a simple physical. Is not like you have to run a certain distance or do pull ups or anything like that. So to say that these guys can pass a flight physical simply means that they have a heart beat and they can breathe.

My two cents.

I agree. My father never failed a flight physical. He was in excellent health (for his age) the day he taxied his plane into the ditch.

AF

 

[Bluebird Marsha]

I suspect that at an event of this kind, there were plenty of cameras and camcorders going; that plus the physical evidence will hopefully result in a definitive cause of the accident. I have no useful knowledge of flying, but I do recall that when I worked at a U.S. Air Force base, there were occasionally some news making crashes. Several military pilots told me that their default thinking was that pilot error was usually the cause. I don't know if that would really be applicable in this type of plane. I gather that even though they are technically WWII era, these planes have been rebuilt so much that they are only technically of that vintage? It seems that there could be a great many causes of this tragedy, of which the pilot's age is only one possibility.

 

[ButteMT61]

Just heard on the radio it had years of overhauls and rebuilding and they're focusing on the rear where the pix seem to show a failure.
Things happen with this sort of sport. I mean, roofs peel off of 737's too.

 

[Phantomfixer]

To me it seems that the loss of the trim tab at high speed and if the plane were in a turn/bank, could have caused the aircraft to pitch up enter a stall (high speed)and at these altitudes no recovery possible. Tragic

 

[Stearmen]

I worked with an ex accident investigator, he said all accidents he investigated had at least three separate little incidents that lead to the crash. Even if a wing fell off, there were always other things that led up to the final moment. I also remember the Confederate Air Forces A-20 that crashed, they could not determine if the pilot had a heart attack before he ran out of fuel, or because he ran out of fuel. All crew members perished in the crash.