P-38s in ETO

[Dixon Cannon]

No '38 ever looked classier than Glacier Girl.

The Avirex-style nose art and cheezy stick-on lettering are unfortunate, but the latter
is apparently required by FAA regs. The former is just a natural occurrence when
you get men, machines, and commercial artists together.

That's "Glacier Girl" flying upfront in the Dibb's photo I posted, with "Porky" on his wing.

-dixon cannon

 

[Dixon Cannon]

By the way...

...anybody know what that silver camera/siren looking device is on Ethell's canopy? I can't figure out what it might be. Not a Venturi Tube. Not a fluid cooler. Any other idea? [huh]

-dixon cannon

 

[KilroyCD]

...anybody know what that silver camera/siren looking device is on Ethell's canopy? I can't figure out what it might be. Not a Venturi Tube. Not a fluid cooler. Any other idea? [huh]

-dixon cannon

That likely is a camera, used during the filming of the "Roaring Glory" series episode on the P-38. I'll have to watch my copy again to see if any footage is from that vantage point.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

That likely is a camera, used during the filming of the "Roaring Glory" series episode on the P-38. I'll have to watch my copy again to see if any footage is from that vantage point.

Thanks KCD, A NWA pilot I just spoke to suggested it might be a thing called a "Grimes Light" - although those would usually be inside, not outside. Anybody want to comment on that possibility? I'd say some sort of camera is more likely myself, although I've not seen one that looks like that before!

-dixon cannon

 

[Twitch]

The P-38 used Allisons, not Merlins. The turbosupercharger used was problematic in the cold climate as well.[huh]

 

[KilroyCD]

Thanks KCD, A NWA pilot I just spoke to suggested it might be a thing called a "Grimes Light" - although those would usually be inside, not outside. Anybody want to comment on that possibility? I'd say some sort of camera is more likely myself, although I've not seen one that looks like that before!

-dixon cannon

Dixon, I just watched the Roaring Glory episode with Jeff and the P-38 today. I can't say for certain that it is a camera, but I can say that I saw the unit sitting at different angles at various times through the show. This leads me to believe it is a remotely operated camera, though I couldn't find any footage that appeared to be from that camera.

 

[KilroyCD]

The P-38 used Allisons, not Merlins. The turbosupercharger used was problematic in the cold climate as well.[huh]

What of the big "what ifs" of the war is how the P-38 would have performed had it been engined with Merlins. I'm sure a lot of back-room discussion on this has occurred since the war, but if one was ever re-engined with Merlins I've never heard of it. One would wonder though, as the Merlin-powered P-40s (P-40F and P-40L) did not exhibit drastically superior performance over the Allison engined versions, especially at the altitudes at which they were used.

 

[Story]

Restored WWII fighter morphs into Flying Bull
By Bill Hanna
Fort Worth Star-Telegram

BRECKENRIDGE, Texas — For more than three years, the P-38L Lightning has been sitting in a nondescript hangar, slowly being brought back to life bolt by bolt.

One of six still flying, the World War II-era fighter built by Lockheed will trade its humble West Texas airfield this week for the sleek, all-glass Hangar 7 in Salzburg, Austria.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008134881_fighter24.html

 

[Eyemo]

Check this link out...It's about 2 hours drive from me.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7076941.stm

 

[Chas]

I recall somewhere seeing a pod slung under the wing where a photographer lay, taking photos. Not where I'd choose to fight a war...

 

[Jabos]

Hello all. This is my first time to join the show. I came out of the shadows for this post since it is a topic dear to me. There were three P-38 Fighter Groups in the ETO from D-Day onward, the 367th, 370th, and 474th in the Ninth Air Force. My grandfather was a 370th pilot. I wrote a history of his outfit, "The 370th Fighter Group in World War II" (shameless plug, but believe me I didn't mention it for my quarter a book royalty!).

Anyway, I'm no technical expert on the 38 but know the 370th stories well so if you don't mind I'll share the perspective of the 370th pilots. They loved the 38 for what they used it for, ground attack work. They also occasionally escorted mediums but mostly they were on the deck. The 38's firepower would chew up anything with its four .50s and a .20mm cannon firing straight ahead. No converging pattern issues. Also, they would dive bomb with their two 500 pounders or napalm. The 370th was the first ETO outfit to use napalm in July '44, and they used it throughout the war.

Major Lawrence Herrick of the 370th wrote in a combat report of June 25, 1944 after a dogfight with 190s, "In conclusion, I would like to add that at low altitudes a P-38 aircraft will outturn, outrun, overtake, and dive with the FW 190." Major Herrick was killed in action a month later while dive bombing.

The 370th men hated the ground attack role and are very upset at the lack of recognition they received compaired to the 8th Air Force. Their attitude was that the 8th pilots had cozy English bases, made rank and earned medals quickly, and got a shot up high at the "green" late war Luftwaffe pilots. (Of course I understand the 8th fighter pilots earned and deserve all the credit they receive-this is the 370th pilots' opinion so I don't mean to start a firestorm here!). The 9th men are bitter since they were often uncomfortable on sometimes crude makeshift bases moving along behind the bomb line and were getting shot at with everything from small arms to 88s. However, they did have the French and Belgian ladies to soften the bitterness.

The late "Snuffy" Owens, the group's only ace, hated the 40mm flak. He said, "It looked like tennis balls coming up at you in a stream, like a hose, and you'd try to get out of the way of it. You just feel helpless sitting there trying to get out of its way. It's just following you around like a snake. An 88-if you saw puffs, you were okay. It's the ones that you didn't see that got you."

They occasionally got jumped at low level by 190s or 109s but rarely had a chance to fight back. My grandfather flew 66 missions and never had even a chance to get a kill. However, his flight leader, the late Al Bouffard, spoke about getting jumped, "I would wait until they got six or seven hundred yards from us before I'd call a break. If you call too soon they could pick you right up. If you called too late you're going to get shot down. . . I'd tell the guys ahead of time we're getting jumped, and then I'd call a break and then we'd all break at once. I think that would shake them up. When they saw you all break at once and they saw that they couldn't get a bead on you they would just keep going right down. By the time you came around in your 360 they were ten miles away and you had no chance of catching them. They would never stay to fight. We got jumped once by FW 190s. They went right through us except one guy. When I came around I see this guy instead of going down through us he was pulling up, and I just happened to be turned in that direction. So, I figured, 'I'm going to get my first one! I'm going to get my first one!' I'm following him but I'm about a thousand yards behind him so I've got to close in. I give it some power. I'm closing in a little bit, but slowly. You can't catch up that fast. All of a sudden I see this big white puff of smoke come out and he just zoomed right away. Water injection."

When the 370th converted to Mustangs in March '45 they did not like them for ground attack work. I can say to a man they loved their Lightnings and dearly missed them. They feel the Lightning was the real "Cadillac of the Skies" and I think they thought of the Mustang as more the "Corvette of the Skies".

I'll stop with the stories for now. I hope perhaps this might be interesting to some of you and if you have any questions about the 370th I'd be happy to answer.

 

[carouselvic]

Good Stuff...My dad worked for Lockheed in 1941 building P-38's

 

[Eyemo]

Excellent Post Jabos...thanks!.. P38 is in my Top 5. I guess you'r Grandfather may have been one of the aircraft photographed by Lee Miller at St Malo?

 

[Jabos]

Thank you Eyemo!!! You just blew my mind. I knew of Lee Miller's work, but nothing of the St. Malo event. Are there pics of the planes dropping nap? Wow. Yes, the 370th is the group that dropped napalm, presumably forcing the surrender. Here is a quote from the 402nd Squadron Commander, Joel Owens:

"A German Colonel was entrenched in the port at St. Malo. He had a couple of battalions of soldaten occupying a fortress in the town and another force on the Isle de Cezembre in fortified coastal artillery positions. Both of these had walls of reinforced concrete that were five to six feet thick. The U.S. commands had decided to wait them out with the hope that they would soon run out of supplies and surrender. The Colonel, whom the Stars and Stripes newspaper had called 'The Mad Man of St. Malo' must have had a copious supply of Cognac and Camembert because he steadfastly refused to surrender. The American command finally decided that this guy is an embarrassment, so lets smoke him out.

"Colonel Nichols led the group on a mission to attack the fort. We received the most detailed briefing that we ever had on any mission. It included close up aerial photos which showed the air intake shaft, the entrances, and the precise location of the fort. Since the target was completely surrounded by our forces, flak was not a problem. The attack would be made by individual planes. As we flew over the town, we could see the forward air controller in an armored half-track parked less than a block from the target. This is about as close as 'close support' can get.

"Colonel Nichols made his run and 'pickled' the air intake shafts in one of the most accurate drops that I ever saw. The controller called for us to cease the attack and stand by. The garrison had surrendered. We were then directed to attack the island. We had not been briefed on this eventuality, and didn't have a good idea of what to go after. I was leading the second element of the lead flight so I went first, followed by my wingman and Colonel Nick's wingman. I dropped my bombs on what appeared to be a barracks."

 

[Eyemo]

Yes there is... I've seen the original prints kept at Farley farm where Lee Miller lived...

 

[Story]

Speaking of which - 1942, England. Complete series at http://images.google.com/hosted/lif...AxdaJA=&prev=/images?q=P-38+source:life&hl=en

P-38 in France, after the fall of Paris. Check out the schwimwagen.
http://images.google.com/hosted/lif...=P-38+source:life&start=20&ndsp=20&hl=en&sa=N

 

[Story]

http://jalopnik.com/5410892/81+year+old-builds-replica-world-war-ii-fighter-flies-cross+country

Jim O'Hara, a retired college professor, learned to fly 21 years ago. Six years later, he began construction of a two-thirds-scale P-38. He's now 81 years old and he and his wife made its maiden cross-country trip three weeks ago.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

I seldom read of P-38 aircraft in use in Europe while I often read of them being used in the Pacific. Why?

Real simple. It has two engines. Pick up some battle damage in the Pacific, in a single-engine aircraft, and you are swimming home.

 

[Diamondback]

Also, the P-38 has a unique feature: handed engines, which are a bear to manufacture but cancel out each other's torque and this allow almost the same maneuverability as a standard single-engine.

IIRC, photorecon and Pathfinder birds alike dumped the guns and turned the entire nose into space for a prone photographer or bombardier/nav respectively.

 

[Forgotten Man]

Ahhhh, music to my ears and a poem for my eyes.

The lower one is the early model that was raised from the ice right? I'm so happy they did save at least one of those planes!

The P-38 has always been a special plane for me... just such a unique and elegant plane. Saw one fly over a few times at the last Great LA Air Raid... you can't mistake those motors and the sound they make... it's a beautiful thing to see a 60+ year old war plane fly! Makes me stand still in absolute awe and reverence for which it stands for.