Oxford Bags

[Nick D]

Is there any non-ancedotal evidence of students of any university wearing them over knickerbockers? Plus fours aren't much different from normal trousers to begin with, and when you add the usual collegiate sweater and maybe a sport coat, there would be so many layers over the middle that no amount of looseness through the hips would hide it, particularly if they were tweed. Also, the blousing of the plus fours over the knee, even with the narrower styles of the '20s, would ruin the drape of the long trouser leg and be visible except with the 'comedy' ones Two Types mentioned.

 

[herringbonekid]

Nick i agree. a pair of baggy trousers over plus fours would look ridiculously bulky.
here's my theory based on no evidence whatsoever; the trousers in the previous photo were maybe the grey jogging bottoms (U.S. sweat pants) of their day. it does mention that those chaps were between races. maybe it was originally a comfy trouser to pull on over athletic / rowing shorts while waiting about ? that would also explain the 'cozy' fleece fabric. (Two Types, while i agree it is some sort of cheap wool i don't think that amount of even all-over wear would be feasible).
people saw them and reproduced the look in smarter fabrics; the rest is history. that's my version anyway.

 

[Two Types]

Good point about the consistency of the fluffy fabric. It does appear that it is not simply 'tufting' in patches. The trouble is that I have no knowledge of cheap sporting overtrousers worn during that period, although it would be a logical conclusion. This actually makes the whole subject of 'Oxford Bags' even more interesting. The photo archives at the various colleges involved would possibly give further hints, as would be the memoirs of people at Oxford University during this period.The order books of Oxford tailors (if any such records still exist) would also give useful information since they should record the cloth types - and also identify the measurements of genuine Oxford Bags (i.e. not trousers with a 40 inch ankle circumpherance!).

It would seem that we are challenging the accepted history of 'Oxford Bags'. That is a good thing. Maybe a couple of weeks back we should have suggested to a certain Mr Chevalier that, if he was getting so frustrated with the FL, he should have gone away to spend a year researching the definitive story of the 'Oxford Bags'. That would have been worth waiting for.

 

[herringbonekid]

TT, i saw on another thread that you've written books on military history. maybe you should consider a more fashion focussed book soon ?
i doubt the Oxford bag story would fill an entire book, but how about British men's fashion 1922 - 1952 ... you know it's dying to be written !
all men ever get is a few pages in the larger books devoted to 30s 40s fashion for the ladies (e.g. Forties Fashion by Jonathan Wolford).

 

[Mario]

^^Attempting to be a firestarter, eh? First Marc, now Two Types... Well, go on - I'm all for it!

 

[Two Types]

Thanks gentlemen. Yes, as a writer with a love of fashion, such a book would be ideal. The trouble is I don't have a background in fashion (although in my past employment I was a picture editor in a press agency, where I was the the specialist in catwalk fashion shows), undermining the credibility of any fashion book written by me. As such, it means I would be looking to write for a small publishers, meaning advances would be lower (and so on).

Plus, I have to combine my writing with other work since history isn't a great payer these days.

However, two of my books do cover fashion. In 'To the Victor the Spoils' I devoted a chapter to fashion in the British Army, showing how soldiers changed their uniforms to make them look more fashionable. In my new book 'Blitz Kids' I cover the story of British seamen buying fashionable American clothes in New York etc during WW2.

But don't worry, given some time, I do intend to write something on fashion: but don't hold your breath!

 

[valentinogaremi]

Hi,
It sounds quit interesting, your post is really useful for me. I'll defiantly check it out. Thanks for your efforts dude.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

I just found a short article with picture in a german magazine. I am a little excited about this. It's from 1929. They are called "Charleston" trousers but Oxford is also mentioned. Will scan it as soon as my own computer works again.

 

[Two Types]

Magnoli 'Oxford bags'

http://www.magnoliclothiers.com/oxford-bags-pants-p-419.html

I hadn't seen these before. I'm in a quandry: I don't like to be critical since I support the idea of people making affordable reproduction clothing. However ... am I alone in thinking these should be called 'College Pants' (or whatever the correct term used in the USA), since they are stylistly closer to those than to original 'Oxford Bags'? The American version (as I would consider these) always seem to be closer on the seat, thus giving a more flared appearance.

Or am I simply being pedantic (or, indeed, am I just wrong)?

.... That aside, I am glad they are making them - but I could never wear them.

 

[herringbonekid]

TT, you're right they do resemble the American collegiate style rather than the English Oxford bag. i think that since those collegiate trousers were inspired by Oxford bags the term might have caught on in the U.S. to encompass the above trouser too.

by the way have you seen these ones ? ...

http://www.revampvintage.com/mm5/me...mp&Product_Code=MT-832321M&Category_Code=M30s

probably the less said about them the better, especially as they're modelled by Mr.Chevalier.

 

[Two Types]

I had seen the trousers on 'Revamp'. I'm afraid I just don't like them. They are just too cartoonish for my tastes. I can happily wear clothing that gives the general impression of an earlier era, but these are just too specific - probably just one area for a very short period of time. How many photographs ever actually show outfits like this worn on a day-to-day basis?

As a ten year old in 1975, these are too similar to the trousers worn by the people you were frightened of! The type that you always heard would 'kick yer head in' if you looked at them/touched their motorbike/spoke to their girlfriend etc. I remember hearing people discussing the depth of their waistbands, the amount of buttons they had (two rows of four at the front etc), depth of turn-ups, amount of buttons on the side pocket flaps, and so on. Mind you, I now look back and laugh at the idea that a youth in 40inch bags, wearing a pair of mocassins or a pair of plastic platform shoes, could beat you up is laughable. My ten year old self could easily have run away from them. (Making one wonder how many of last summer's rioters were caught by the police because they failed to run away quick enough due to having to hold their trousers up with one hand whilst running)

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

From two different issues of "Der Schneidermeister" 1929. The text says it was modern in 1927 but is oudated now. In fact it is very critical and describes the trousers as "Modenentgleisung" ...a faux pas and sign of bad taste. The leg opnening at the cuff would be 60 cm (23.60 inches) but I think in the first picture it is more.

 

[herringbonekid]

The leg opnening at the cuff would be 60 cm (23.60 inches) but I think in the first picture it is more.

yep, definitely more. looks more like 23 front to back.
the first picture appears to be another of those extreme examples that only seem to exist in articles about Oxford Bags but never in actual real-life photos.
thanks for the scans !

 

[Mario]

Oh my...those trousers are indeed monsterous! :eeek:

Makes me think of a wonderful song and video (ok, the pants here are different but still...):

[video=youtube;Dc3AovUZgvo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3AovUZgvo[/video]





​

 

[John in Covina]

Boyer said that extageration is the coupe de gras to style.

 

[herringbonekid]

Boyer said that extageration is the coupe de gras to style.

if that's true then the 70s was the shot in the back of the head to the jazzy 20s and early 30s (see Tommy Nutter for more). it might need another thread to discuss this topic further.

 

[Two Types]

if that's true then the 70s was the shot in the back of the head to the jazzy 20s and early 30s (see Tommy Nutter for more). it might need another thread to discuss this topic further.

Back in the mid 70s I saw some clothing in a catalogue. The model was wearing a wide collared white shirt (worn out over the jacket), cream bags and a brown jacket. I thought it was the height of style. Now I realise it was just a 'modern' take on the 30s stylings that I now love. It looked good but image how few natural fabrics would have been in the outfit?

Thanks for those German scans, FFF. It's another example of the Oxford Bags gimmick, although the illustration appears to be genuine styling.

It did a few internet searches on the origins of 'Bags' and found reference to Hall Brothers tailors of Oxford having been the originators. Unfortunately they have closed down, and their site was taken over by Ede and Ravenscroft. I might do some digging to find out whether E&R took them over, or just took over the site. It would be nice to see who holds the originals records etc from Hall Brothers. They closed down within the last 20 years, so there should be some company records lurking around.

 

[Two Types]

From two different issues of "Der Schneidermeister" 1929. The text says it was modern in 1927 but is oudated now. In fact it is very critical and describes the trousers as "Modenentgleisung" ...a faux pas and sign of bad taste. The leg opnening at the cuff would be 60 cm (23.60 inches) but I think in the first picture it is more.

The suit in the illustration is curious. The jacket has an odd looking lapel, whilst the waistcoat is very high closing, but appears to be double breasted. I've not seen this style before. A German feature? Or an ill-informed illustrator?

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Yes. the jacket is very strange indeed. Maybe it should look wrong hence the critical tone in the text.

It did a few internet searches on the origins of 'Bags' and found reference to Hall Brothers tailors of Oxford having been the originators. Unfortunately they have closed down, and their site was taken over by Ede and Ravenscroft. I might do some digging to find out whether E&R took them over, or just took over the site. It would be nice to see who holds the originals records etc from Hall Brothers. They closed down within the last 20 years, so there should be some company records lurking around.

This is new to me. Would be great to find out. The history of the oxford bags seems to contain too much myth and not enough source material.

 

[herringbonekid]

In 1982 Alan Flusser (author of 'Dressing the Man') designed a pair of trousers which were a 'close adaptation' of the Oxford bag and called the 'Cleaverly Pant'.
whether he had hands on reference of an actual pair of originals is unknown. they were made from cotton chino. unfortunately i don't have a shot of the whole leg, just this from a Bloomingdale's ad: