Overly appreciated movies?

[LizzieMaine]

I don't agree with all this musical bashing! I do think the Sound of Music is dreadful, but West Side Story is one of the greatest films ever made. (Mind you, I recently listed my all time top-ten films and my daughter pointed out I must be the only person whose top-ten includes two films starring Russ Tamblyn: West Side Story and The Haunting).

A few years back, I used to work alongside another big fan of musicals. We used to sing to each other all the time - which was rather perplexing for the rest of the company. As he once pointed out to me What's the chance of two straight, middle-aged men, both loving musicals, and sharing a desk?

It's interesting how that stereotype developed -- in the twenties and thirties, musicals were popular with all sexes and orientations. Broadway musicals in the twenties were a particular favorite of the "Tired Business Man," and every chorus girl knew to watch out for the boys in the Baldheaded Row. Likewise in the thirties, everybody loved Busby Berkeley films, or Eddie Cantor's annual extravaganzas, or Astaire and Rogers: many women daydreamed about being with a man like Astaire, and many men daydreamed about being, even in a small way, a man like Astaire.

I don't think the musicals = A Gay Male Thing trope really made it into popular culture until the early sixties or so, and it was permanently cemented by Susan Sontag's writings on camp, thus ensuring that no "proper man" would admit to liking musicals for fear of being painted with the lavender brush. That being so, a Golden Era man would likely have enjoyed at least some musicals very much.

As for my own tastes, I really don't care for the R&H/Sondheim/Lloyd-Webber style of production simply because they take themselves way, way, way too seriously. I don't like music in general that takes itself too seriously -- which rules out practically everything of the rock era, as far as I'm concerned. Modern musicians -- and modern musicals -- go out of their way to impress the audience with how profound and artistic and dead-weight Meaningful they are, the ultimate Emo art form before Emo was even invented.

Nertz to that overwrought caterwauling. Give me Ethel Merman and dancing elephants and music that refuses to take itself the least bit seriously.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

[video=youtube;aVMXw_y7jyI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVMXw_y7jyI[/video]

Give me Ethel Merman and dancing elephants and music that refuses to take itself the least bit seriously.

I find Ethel Merman's stylings reminiscent of Al Jolson or Belle Baker.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Sophie Tucker could sing like that too -- it was a classic pre-amplification stage voice.

 

[Chasseur]

It's interesting how that stereotype developed -- in the twenties and thirties, musicals were popular with all sexes and orientations. Broadway musicals in the twenties were a particular favorite of the "Tired Business Man," and every chorus girl knew to watch out for the boys in the Baldheaded Row. Likewise in the thirties, everybody loved Busby Berkeley films, or Eddie Cantor's annual extravaganzas, or Astaire and Rogers: many women daydreamed about being with a man like Astaire, and many men daydreamed about being, even in a small way, a man like Astaire.

I don't think the musicals = A Gay Male Thing trope really made it into popular culture until the early sixties or so, and it was permanently cemented by Susan Sontag's writings on camp, thus ensuring that no "proper man" would admit to liking musicals for fear of being painted with the lavender brush. That being so, a Golden Era man would likely have enjoyed at least some musicals very much.

As for my own tastes, I really don't care for the R&H/Sondheim/Lloyd-Webber style of production simply because they take themselves way, way, way too seriously. I don't like music in general that takes itself too seriously -- which rules out practically everything of the rock era, as far as I'm concerned. Modern musicians -- and modern musicals -- go out of their way to impress the audience with how profound and artistic and dead-weight Meaningful they are, the ultimate Emo art form before Emo was even invented.

Nertz to that overwrought caterwauling. Give me Ethel Merman and dancing elephants and music that refuses to take itself the least bit seriously.

This sums up my feelings very well. I used to hate musicals, I think in particular because most of my friends and acquaintances in high school and college were 'theatre people' and every 10 minutes they'd break out in songs from Weber's "Phantom of the Opera" or some such... When the film version of "Chicago" came out I saw in the theatre and it changed my mind about musicals. Since then, in particular as I've gotten older they've become one of my favorite genres of film for the aforementioned escapism. In contrast the movie genre that has aged least well for me are action films. It gets harder and harder to watch them as I grow older.

 

[Guttersnipe]

I don't agree with all this musical bashing!

Agreed. Personal preferences have no bearing in an objective discussion of a thing's relative merits or weakness.

For example, I personally cannot stand musicals, but I would never say The Wizard of Oz is overrated because I don't care for its musical interludes.

Expanding on what I said about The Third Man: the reason I think it falls short (but not by much) is the storyline isn't particularly complex; the viewer is able to figure out the characters very quickly (or at least, I was); the musical score is distracting (although, I'm sure the odd mandolin music was consciously intended to evoke absurdity, but IMO, it doesn't work); and the best actor in the film, Orson Welles, gets comparatively little screen time...

 

[Ernest P Shackleton]

Anything that looks like 300 or Sin City.

 

[Chasseur]

Anything that looks like 300 or Sin City.

 

[p51]

I don't dislike musicals because a heterosexual man in America isn't supposed to like them now, I just don't like signing where it doesn't belong in a movie. Same with anything else for the most part where it's thrown in only because the director thought it was cool.
Same thing for violence or nudity when it's obviously put in to make a r rated movie from a pg rated one.
Same also for movie like, "something about Mary" where they're being comically crude just because they can.
Maybe I expect more from film makers than that.
But as for musicals, I do tire of the musical snobs who feel that it's a personality disorder not to love musicals as much as they do...

 

[DNO]

As far as overrated films, there's so many of them that it hurts my head to mull it over.

And as for musicals, I will admit to quite enjoying Cry Baby (1990).

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

Any movie containing Marilyn Monroe. She was as bad as a actor as Charo was a comedian. Cuchi-cuchi.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Any movie containing Marilyn Monroe. She was as bad as a actor as Charo was a comedian. Cuchi-cuchi.

If Marilyn hadn't died when and how she did -- if we'd seen her grow old and blowsy -- she'd be Shelley Winters, not the sex icon of the century. And the same goes for James Dean -- if he'd lived a long life and ended up a ridiculous, bloated self-caricature like Brando, well....

Something I don't like are self-consciously-arty "art films." I don't mind a film with artistic value, but it has to have actual entertainment value as well. If the only reason people go to see a film is because some pointy-bearded critic in a black turtleneck says it's "art", well, they're not too much different from Charlie the Tuna trying to prove to the world that he has good taste.

 

[Fading Fast]

If Marilyn hadn't died when and how she did -- if we'd seen her grow old and blowsy -- she'd be Shelley Winters, not the sex icon of the century. And the same goes for James Dean -- if he'd lived a long life and ended up a ridiculous, bloated self-caricature like Brando, well....

Something I don't like are self-consciously-arty "art films." I don't mind a film with artistic value, but it has to have actual entertainment value as well. If the only reason people go to see a film is because some pointy-bearded critic in a black turtleneck says it's "art", well, they're not too much different from Charlie the Tuna trying to prove to the world that he has good taste.

I'm with you on Marilyn - could not agree more about her having died when and how she did making her an icon (great analogy to Shelley Winters), but am not sure about Dean. He might have matured away from the overly studied method acting into a decent actor (maybe not, just not sure - I see some real acting occasionally from him in his three roles).

And yes to your comment on art films: a film has to entertain first and, then, if there is artistic value in it such as having multiple layers of meaning, beautifully scripted scenes and echoes of philosophical ideas (that wash over you, are hinted at or quietly develop - i.e., aren't smashed in your face) then kudos to all involved for making a great film. The 1980s/90s had some painful "art films" touted by your "pointy-bearded critic in a black turtleneck" (LOL on that one) such as "The Unbearable Lightness of Being," "Sex Lies and Video Tape" and "The Crying Game" that were just awful entertainment.

And I can't listen to "Candle in the Wind" 'cause it contributes to the hagiography of MM.

 

[Worf]

"The Big Lebowski" - The cultish fawning over this tripe amazes me. I've almost had fist fights over it.

"Reds" - I'm not sure Mr. Beatty can even act!

"Dances With Wolves" - C'mon man!

"Gone With the Wind" - Start with the happy, cheerful slaves and work your way down from there....

"Giant" - About an hour too long.

Worf

 

[Stanley Doble]

Agreed. Personal preferences have no bearing in an objective discussion of a thing's relative merits or weakness.

For example, I personally cannot stand musicals, but I would never say The Wizard of Oz is overrated because I don't care for its musical interludes.

Expanding on what I said about The Third Man: the reason I think it falls short (but not by much) is the storyline isn't particularly complex; the viewer is able to figure out the characters very quickly (or at least, I was); the musical score is distracting (although, I'm sure the odd mandolin music was consciously intended to evoke absurdity, but IMO, it doesn't work); and the best actor in the film, Orson Welles, gets comparatively little screen time...

The characters and basic story of any mystery usually are not very complex, if you leave out the mystery part. The only one I didn't really believe in is Joseph Cotton as the naive rube. Other than that the story was intriguing with enough twists and surprises for anyone.

It's a zither, not a mandolin. The zither is or was quite a respectable instrument in German speaking countries. It was not meant to evoke absurdity. It was meant to evoke poverty. The spare music with a single musician went with the dystopian theme. Everyone in Vienna was on the edge of the abyss and had been for years.

Welles may not have appeared in person until late in the picture but Harry Lime was in every scene. This is what makes the story work.

You have to understand that at the end of the war Vienna was in a political limbo. After 5 years of war the Nazi government was gone but there was no new government to take its place. Instead, you had the occupying armies doing their best to provide some kind of government.

In this chaos criminals and black market racketeers had their day. They faced severe punishment if they were caught but the military police were handicapped by not knowing the language or the city and they could be avoided if you knew the angles.

This was the milieu in which Lime ran his murderous rackets until the cops got wise to him. Then he was in trouble. Being a closed city it was impossible to leave without travel documents. He was as good as trapped, it was only a matter of time until he was run down and caught.

Unless he could lure his old friend Holley to the city. Then he had a chance to get out, using his passport, and leave him in the lurch like the time they got caught in the police raid on the gambling joint.

In the meantime he had to murder Harbin to keep him from talking, fake up a street accident to dispose of Harbin's body, pretending it was himself who was killed to take the heat off. Then hide out in the Russian section until he could do away with Holley and make his getaway.

This may seem simple to you but I doubt Harry Lime saw it that way.

 

[Fading Fast]

"The Big Lebowski" - The cultish fawning over this tripe amazes me. I've almost had fist fights over it.

"Reds" - I'm not sure Mr. Beatty can even act!

"Dances With Wolves" - C'mon man!

"Gone With the Wind" - Start with the happy, cheerful slaves and work your way down from there....

"Giant" - About an hour too long.

Worf

"The Big Lebowski" - The cultish fawning over this tripe amazes me. I've almost had fist fights over it. ---- haven't seen it

"Reds" - I'm not sure Mr. Beatty can even act! ---- pretentious movie, he can't act and way, way too long

"Dances With Wolves" - C'mon man! ----dancing forever with boredom

"Gone With the Wind" - Start with the happy, cheerful slaves and work your way down from there….--- Great comment, but also I just don't love it, in part because I think Gable overacts.

"Giant" - About an hour too long. ---- Exactly and that last hour is bad.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Apart from the obvious blockbuster CGI trash I dislike artsy farsty french sixties movies. They talk about relationships, love and betrayal all day long.

I love dark french 30s movies though. Their mood is hopeless like in film noirs but without hard boiled detectives.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Apart from the obvious blockbuster CGI trash I dislike artsy farsty french sixties movies. They talk about relationships, love and betrayal all day long.

The only thing worse than an artsy-fartsy French sixties movie is an artsy-fartsy *homage* to French sixties movies made by a spinach-bearded film student from Glendale.

 

[Guttersnipe]

The characters and basic story of any mystery usually are not very complex, if you leave out the mystery part. The only one I didn't really believe in is Joseph Cotton as the naive rube. Other than that the story was intriguing with enough twists and surprises for anyone.

That's my point exactly. Many noirs and mysteries rely on plot twists to keep the viewer guessing, but the true greats couple plot devices with complex, compelling characters. For example, the characters played respectively by Robert Mitchum's and Richard Widmark in Out of The Past and Night and the City are both quite complex, with layered motivations.

It's a zither, not a mandolin. The zither is or was quite a respectable instrument in German speaking countries. It was not meant to evoke absurdity. It was meant to evoke poverty. The spare music with a single musician went with the dystopian theme. Everyone in Vienna was on the edge of the abyss and had been for years.

It's not the instrument that doesn't work; it's the score that doesn't work. In a number of scenes, there is very whimsical music, which to me hurts a number of the suspenseful moments in the film. Although, in some scenes, it works quite well . . .

. . . also, if you go back to my original post, you'll note I never said I didn't like The Third Man (I believe I said it is really quite good, actually). I just don't think it's one of the 10 best noirs ever made, which of course many film critics do.

For me:
1. Out of the Past (1947)
2. Night and the City (1950)
3. The Killers (1946)
4. Killer's Kiss (1955)
5. The Killing (1956)

(dang I sound morbid :lol )

 

[Guttersnipe]

The only thing worse than an artsy-fartsy French sixties movie is an artsy-fartsy *homage* to French sixties movies made by a spinach-bearded film student from Glendale.

HA! But overall, the French do make pretty good movies . . .

. . . having worked my way through most of the well and lesser known American and British noirs, I started watching French noirs recently, and boy are they good!

 

[Nobert]

Sometimes the reputation of a movie can overwhelm or jaundice your opinion...in a way it's as though you're not allowed to form your own impressions because so much breath and ink have been directed towards lauding a certain classic. It's enough to get your hackles up. That in addition to how your reaction to something can be entirely dependent on your own mood or receptiveness when you first encounter it.

I was initially underwhelmed when I first saw Citizen Kane, having heard so much about how this was the best movie ever made. Subsequent viewings, however, made me appreciate it, and eventually come to really like it. Whether it's the number one film ever, I wouldn't care to posit (I haven't seen them all), but my opinion is that it deserves its place in the firmament.