Our symols and how we regard them.

[ClintonHammond]

I find it much more disturbing that this country to the north of me is gonna outlaw flag burning, but continue to allow the guys in the white hoods to gather and burn crosses...

Where ARE your priorities?

 

[Biltmore Bob]

Swinggal...The USA is not a democracy, it's a representative republic. We elect people to govern us, we try to get people in office that share our views and convictions.

Clinton...I thought cross burning was illegal, and considered a hate crime. Well, maybe not.

While I don't advocate crime, or race hate, I don't think that the government can't legislate morality either.

First of all, let me cut any flamers off at the pass, I don't hate Black People. I don't belong to the Klan. But If someone considers flag burning a right, then the same person must consider cross burning a right also.

Let's draw some parallels, shall we....

Flag and cross burning offends some people.
It's someone burning their own property.
It's just burning a meaningless peice of frabric or wood.
It's freedom of speech, expression, and a form of protest.

I could go on...

Once again, for the record...I don't advocate the burning of crosses.

 

[BD Jones]

The wood and fabric (or anything else a symbol might be made of) is only meaningless until we assign meaning to it. As Christian (Catholic) I assign a great deal of meaning the cross. It is a representation of my religion and the man who died for my sins. However, someone of a different (non-Christian) faith or no faith will not assign that meaning to it, nor would I expect them to. The same holds true for the US flag. As an American, I hold it in high regards as a symbol of my freedom and even as a memoriam to those who fought and died to protect it. However, it is obvious that others do not feel the same way. I do not expect someone from China to have the same feelings about the flag as myself. The reason people burn flags or cross or other symbols is that they DO have meaning, even if they do not hold that meaning themselves. They are trying to elicit a response or show disrespect to those that do hold mean in the symbols. Why else would they go through the effort to destroy the symbols?

This is not uniquely American ideal either. The Koran is just a book, like the bible, but those of the Muslim faith have assigned meaning to it. Look how they reacted when it was suspected that it was mistreated by American soldiers. The Koran doesn't mean much to most Americans, but that doesn't make it any less symbolic and important to others.

 

[HaraldTheSwede]

In Sweden we have this ridiculous law which means neo-nazis have no freedom of speech at all (because they are not allowed to offend an ethnic group). They aren't even allowed to have a nazi flag on their own property or in their own house if it can be seen by someone passing by. And they aren't allowed to speak in public or publish anything that could offend an ethnic group (like the Jews). If they do the Hitler salute in public, or if they wear a ribbon with a svastika, they will be charged.

People think this is just fine because the neo-nazis have no respect for freedom of speech themselves, and they think a democracy should protect it's citizens from such mad men. I say they have already lost if this is how they intend to do it.


First they came for the neo-nazis, and I did not speak out because I was not a neo-nazi.
Then...?

 

[Mycroft]

Well, another political desssion triges my intersest. All I can say is this: First, I agree that flag burning is disgraceful(understatement) to our nation, but we must relize the flag and all other symbols are in us, and we repersent it(the American People), the flag is just a personification of our pride,honor, and courage in our hearts for our home(the United States). (this applies to everyones home nation).

 

[ITG]

For me, burning a flag just seems pointless. It solves nothing. Sure people are expressing their opinions, but it sure doesn't get them anywhere. Now with that said, I would not burn a flag myself, but I do feel burning a flag is a freedom of speech and to take that away is just going to pave the way for other rights to be taken away that our Bill of Rights guarantees us. Burning the flag is already against the law, making it an amendment is pointless. I actually find it ironic because you've got the First Amendment protectingm your freedom of speech and then here they are wanting to make an amendment that contradicts the First Amendment and tries to take some of that freedom away. Makes no sense to me.

 

[ITG]

People think this is just fine because the neo-nazis have no respect for freedom of speech themselves, and they think a democracy should protect it's citizens from such mad men. I say they have already lost if this is how they intend to do it.

Well, the Neo Nazis are in essense representing Hitler and all he stood for. I can see your country's point of view in that they are trying to prevent a repeat of history. Now if a guy is gonna dress like a Neo Nazi and not create a problems, then fine I guess, but once he starts doing criminal acts and is convicted as such, that's when he should lose his rights and be treated as a criminal. But then here I am opposing my American ideals on your country, that's probably not right either I suppose, as I'm not sure how Sweden's judicial system works, although it's probably similar, innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Feraud]

Thank you for all the replies. The few following statements/ideas that follow were raised in the discussion.

If I buy a flag, is it my property to do as I see fit?

Are politicians just "blowing smoke" in an attempt to distract us from real and relevant issues that affect us all? If so, why would those we elect do that?

Do( or should ) people who are vehemently opposed to flag buring hold the same principles for others? I will be specific and mention the example of the alleged desecration of the Koran. Another great example are those with tattered American flags hanging lifeless from their cars and homes. Talk about irony....

Do we believe in the Freedom of Speech and Expression without limits? In practice, are these Rights exercised for the good of others or out of personal selfishness of profit? I will add here television censorship, foul language, a desire to remove the Pledge of Allegiance in school, etc.

All of your responses have made me think deeper about how I feel for this question. This may an issue (and in certain opinions a small one) that rarely effects our lives but it seems like a real question of foundation. To me the foundation is one of respect. I may not like someone or agree with them, but respect goes a long way! I can vigorously protest a president in office but the feelings of hate expressed in something like fire makes me worry about the protestor as much as the object of protest.

You all keep me thinking...

 

[ClintonHammond]

"In Sweden we have this ridiculous law which means neo-nazis have no freedom of speech at all ... they will be charged."

I see nothing ridiculous about that at all... I applaud Scandinavia for HAVING such a strong anti-nazi stance, and the stones to enforce it...

Thought I think there's a HUGE difference between being a Nazi, and protesting the actions of ones government by burning a symbol of that government... Like burning bras to protest negative treatment of women, the flag is a very useful thing TO burn in order to make a statement.

 

[Biltmore Bob]

I assign meaning to alot of stuff...

My meaning ain't necessarily someone else's meaning. Like the Koran, for instance. Does not mean a thing to me. I won't burn or pee on it though, out of respect for the people that it does mean something to. The flag means alot to me, I served under it and I honor those that fought and died for it. While I won't burn or pee on it, if you want to, that's your buisness and I don't have to watch. The cross means something to me, if I see it burning I get upset and enraged. I am offended daily, but that's life. Nobody seems to care if the Conservative Christian is offended. The same people that will tell us that flag burning is a right and a freedom will tell us that peeing on the Holy Koran while dressed like a Nazi should be a crime because it offends someone. I'm not a Nazi, but if someone wants to dress like one, and look like an idiot let them. Let the Klan have a rally, they are their own worst enemys anyway. The Nazis and Klan are a bunch of social misfits and freaks anyway. The more they do their thing the more they isolate themselves, in my opinion.

I agree with ITG, I think flag burning is pointless.

It's a provocational protest. It's intent is to discrace and inrage a segment of society and provoke a violent response. If we react to it, the flag burners are the winners. Cross burning is meant to frighten and intimidate. If we are frightened and intimidated, the cross burners win.

As some of you can probably guess, I'm a Christian, the Holy Bible is my roadmap. I know that I fail miserably and disapoint my savior daily.
But the Bible to me is just a book, and I can get a new one if it gets burned or urinated on. It's the words that have meaning.

 

[jamespowers]

I think those that take extreme positions and do stupid things only hurt their causes by their actions. As much as I dislike their causes, I am also fine with letting them look stupid so their cause looks stupid along with it.
Burning a flag will alienate veterans, patriots, current servicemen and a host of other people. If they want to shoot their cause in the head like that---fine. These people do not understand that these actions are pure symbolism over substance and people see right through it.
What is accomplished by burning a flag, Bible, Koran or Holy Cross? You lose any support you would have otherwise obtained from the groups you offended. It is far better to change hearts and minds with calm logical discussion rather than acting like an idiot and making people mad at you. I remember seeing some idiot on TV try to burn a flag and ended up setting himself on fire. You have to be careful when flags bite back. Do I have any sympathy for him---NO!
George Washington was right about a Representative Republic surviving only as long as its people remain moral.

Regards to all,

J

 

[ClintonHammond]

"Burning a flag will alienate veterans, patriots, current servicemen and a host of other people."

I'm sure some would say that 'those' folks are perhaps part of the problem...

 

[jamespowers]

"Burning a flag will alienate veterans, patriots, current servicemen and a host of other people."

I'm sure some would say that 'those' folks are perhaps part of the problem...

And what problem would they be? The fact that you can say what you want here is directly attributable to veterans, those currently serving and patriots such as John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson and other writers of the Federalist Papers.
The host of other people could be just plain citizens. Be my guest and alienate them. Nothing you want will ever become reality if you want to blame everyone else but the man in the mirror first.

"We believe in all our hearts in democracy; in the capacity of the people to govern themselves; and we are bound to succeed, for our success means not only our own triumph, but the triumph of the cause of the rights of the people throughout the world, and the uplifting of the banner of hope for all the nations of mankind." Theodore Roosevelt 1910

Regards to all,

J

 

[ClintonHammond]

"And what problem would they be?"

Well, and I'm must thinking out loud here, if one wants to change the 'establishment', those who support and are supported by the establishment are going to be the ones who fight hardest against you...

As I said above, at the root, to me the flag (Any flag) is just a swath of fabric... Burning it in protest, and possible laws to try to prevent its burning are just symptoms of much deeper, and more important issues...

 

[feltfan]

Burning a flag will alienate veterans, patriots, current servicemen and a host of other people.

As I recall, quite a few veterans were involved in flag burnings
in the 60s. They resented the government that sent them to kill
people far away for no good reason. Many people who considered
themselves patriotic and a great many then serving in Vietnam
supported those veterans in expressing their horror.
Patriots, like veterans and people serving in our armed forces,
held and hold a wide range of views.

The fact that you can say what you want here is directly attributable to veterans...

One could make an argument that it is attributable in part to some
veterans. But many have served wars of empire, greed, corporate gain,
and racism. These wars could very well have made us less safe.
Unless we own fruit companies, armament companies, oil companies,
or Halliburton. Hard to say how the war in Vietnam made us safer
or whether we were less safe for losing it. Entirely unclear how our
freedoms were bolstered by wars covert and overt in Latin America.
A good argument has been made by historians that World War I was
manufactured by arms dealers.

The point is, not all veterans or patriots have the same opinions.

 

[jamespowers]

"And what problem would they be?"

Well, and I'm must thinking out loud here, if one wants to change the 'establishment', those who support and are supported by the establishment are going to be the ones who fight hardest against you...

They may do that but it is not impossible to change anything even though they are against you. The US wouldn't exist inthe first place if the colonists had such a defeatist attitude. Now that was CHANGE.
You need not be afraid of the military or its troops in the US. Posse Comitatus prevents the use of military troops against the citizens of the US. In other words, it prevents the military from being used as a domestic police force and turning us into a Banana Republic.
Veterans are an asset not a liability. They are trained and able to serve at a moments notice if physically able. I think they would defend our rights over tyranny in any situation. Serving servicemen are also advised that they can refuse to obey an illegal order.
No, I am not afraid of the military. Such fear should be more directed at politicians who can do such things without firing a shot.

Regards to all,

J

 

[ClintonHammond]

"held and hold a wide range of views"
"not all veterans or patriots have the same opinions"

That addresses what is popularly known as the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.

"prevents the use of military troops against the citizens of the US"
What university was it again, that the National Guard shot up? Are they not 'military'?

"Veterans are an asset not a liability"
I've known some who were assets... and some who were liabilities...

 

[jamespowers]

The point is, not all veterans or patriots have the same opinions.

Maybe not but do you deny that burning a Flag, Bible or Koran causes a backlash among those who disagree and steels them further against you and might even change the minds of some who might otherwise agree?
What do you have against rational debate instead of useless grandstanding and burning of a flag?
It is counterproductive. The only change that really happened was when people became part of the institutions that they disagreed with and worked for change within. They stated their issues and swayed people with their ideas not chasing after them with a burning flag.

Regards to all,

J

 

[jamespowers]

"prevents the use of military troops against the citizens of the US"
What university was it again, that the National Guard shot up? Are they not 'military'?

"Veterans are an asset not a liability"
I've known some who were assets... and some who were liabilities...

The National Guard is excluded from Posse Comitatus. You can be afraid of them if you want but they are needed in many cases. Cases like the one you mention seldom happen and have not happened as far back as I can remember. In the end they are held responsible for the used of excessive force anyway.
I also know some people who are liabilities as well.

Regards to all,

J

 

[ClintonHammond]

"You can be afraid of them if you want"

Didn't say I was... Hard to be, especially not being an American...