Original vs. Repro?

[AdeeC]

How old is true vintage? Is it 25, 40, 50 years or more?

 

[ButteMT61]

How old is true vintage? Is it 25, 40, 50 years or more?

Yes.

I'm sure there is a number or other marker that's acceptable. I'd wager that Dinerman has the answer...

 

[handymike]

I think we probably agree Pre-1970.

 

[navetsea]

actually it might sound like a strange question... but what is the difference between vintage VS old?
is it history value behind it (being used in WW II, appeared in the movie, etc) or style that correctly represented their time, or the state of preservation of a jacket?

I wonder in the next 25 yrs and more what would be considered vintage from 2015

 

[Dinerman]

So whats the story about the Hookless jacket zipper? There are a few examples in Google images. Or is it a make of zipper, but never used on any leather jackets.

Hookless was the first production zipper company. They changed their name to Talon in 1928. The separable bottom zipper wasn't invented until 1929 and didn't go into production until early 1930. At that time, the zippers were marked Talon (with a small hookless at the bottom until 1932). The Hookless branded slider you see on so many reproductions was designed for non-separable uses, bags, pullovers, coveralls, that kind of thing, and was two years out of production by the time the separable stop box came into being. Basically, the combo of the '30s Talon tape/stop box design and the Hookless slider never existed originally, and is strictly a product of the reproduction world. This is probably because the Hookless slider (and the name) seem "more authentic" than what the actual truth.

Two years may not seem like much to be off, but when you're talking about going to the trouble of reproducing a detail which is so small, expensive (compared with an off the shelf modern zip) and which is claiming to be accurate, it makes a difference.

 

[Sloan1874]

I think the Hookless zips are £20 a pop, which is *woof* money.

 

[AdeeC]

actually it might sound like a strange question... but what is the difference between vintage VS old?
is it history value behind it (being used in WW II, appeared in the movie, etc) or style that correctly represented their time, or the state of preservation of a jacket?

I wonder in the next 25 yrs and more what would be considered vintage from 2015

Good question I was wondering myself. I have two Schott Western/Rancher fringed jackets similar to the one Dennis Hopper wore in Easy Rider.
The Rancher dates from the early sixties with the Made in New York label and has chunky leather buttons. The name changed Western from the early 80's is exactly the same jacket except it has press stud buttons and a Made in USA label with American flag. New Schott Western jackets are also very similar to the Western version from 30 years ago. I suspect the press stud closures are a more modern feature and likely a cost cutting measure rather than an aesthetic change. Far more work and time in sewing on buttons. The early sixties one is unquestionaly vintage due to age and it has old time features. The 1980's one is in a grey area as it does not have the true vintage features and is essentially the same as new versions but now has accumulated some age

 

[rocketeer]

^^^ Excuse me, but it's vintage. Er, vintage inspired. Errrr, it's got character!

I think one of the worst offenders is the word 'Classic', easpecially when applied to cars. A car is classed as classic simply because it is old and has no qualities to make it classic. It may be a well restored car, but is it classic or just a nice old car?
Vintage inspired? Well I guess thats anything based on that old look such as wide bottom trousers or Platform shoes(1940s?)
I watched an episode of American Pickers in which Mike Wolfe wore a real beat up flakey surface jacket. It may have been vintage, that is to say very old, but a classic design? It just looked like an old leather jacket to me.
Authentic? Your guess is as good as mine. Eastman was once at the top of the tree for replica A2s, being described as The Most Authentic available. now their older jackets are often described as not that authentic but that is against what they are making today.
So if you made an A2 years back with a YKK zip, nylon knits and described it as The Most Authentic, then maybe it was as those were the only materials available at that time.
Character? Well old motorcycles are described as having character especially if you have to go through a special starting procedure, or leak oil. Or is it just poor design or maintenance.

 

[Otter]

The oil leak on older bikes is a design feature. When the leak stops, you are out of oil !

 

[Seb Lucas]

actually it might sound like a strange question... but what is the difference between vintage VS old?
is it history value behind it (being used in WW II, appeared in the movie, etc) or style that correctly represented their time, or the state of preservation of a jacket?

I wonder in the next 25 yrs and more what would be considered vintage from 2015

There is no answer to this other then to say "vintage" is a reverential word for something old that you like, while old just refers to age.

It's all opinion and aged related. I know an 18 year-old who thinks clothing from 1985 is cool and classic....

I know a lot of people who like what they call "classic" cars - a '67 Mustang, a '53 Rolls Royce, whatever. As someone who has no interest in things with motors they're just old to me.

 

[cordwangler]

How old is true vintage? Is it 25, 40, 50 years or more?

Seb's about right. In relation to old stuff, other than wine, determining whether a [whatever] is "vintage" of its kind is pretty much an implicit agreement between people who appreciate [whatever]. It's not enough for a thing to just be old. There has to be some style to a thing or something that identifies it uniquely as of its type. I think this gets to Dinerman's point about repro. And there's also a big difference between homage and actual knowledge - although they're not mutually exclusive.

After particular communities of interest, generally with some collective store of knowledge, work out what is and isn't worthy of discussion, wider culture gets involved and messes around with definitions and everything - often with ongoing interesting and confusing results regarding where the knowledge sits and what exactly is what.

 

[Big J]

I'm not so sure that terms such as 'vintage' and 'classic' are all that helpful.
Vintage usually means old. Very old. But not ancient.
Classic implies some sort of cultural resonance: old glass coke bottles are 'classic', many other glass bottles have no cultural significance and are not classic.

I think the original post was about vintage and repro. If you order a repro with many modifications, why not just buy a modern jacket?

As with some of the other members, I go with repro due to size considerations, but a vintage jacket in my size would never get worn- I'd be afraid of damaging it.

 

[Plumbline]

After many years of buying "Vintage" I discovered "Repro" and it was a revelation ...... but having moved full circle now I have to say that there is a place for both and I have both in my wardrobe.

With the exception of some of BK's offerings and JC's stuff modern "Repro's" aren't really "reproductions" ... more modern versions IMHO. Hides in "Vintage " jackets were much lighter ( Horween CXL wasn't used in a leather jacket until the early 90's and I have yet to find a vintage jacket in as heavy a hide other than German M/C jackets or heavy utility (workers) clothing e.g. welders aprons). This is getting much better with the use of lighter hides and more flexible tannages but still not a patch on original leather ( you simply cannot put 70 years or wear into leather in a matter of months). There are also unique features in originals which are true to the period e.g. waterproof chest pockets for storing tobacco which we seldom see in repros and some of the repro features are strictly fashion rather than reproduction ( despite the enigma that this statement is !) .

The benefit of a reproduction is it's shiney and new and has that new leather smell and is yours to age oh and ( as many have said) you can get it in your size, colour, hide of choice, lining and label...... these benefits are also their drawback.

Being shortish I can often find jackets that fit ... being stocky is more difficult to manage e.g. finding a decent 44" A2 is MUCH harder than a decent 38" A2, but I have through the years managed to find many decent "originals" especially in my preferred area of M/C jackets ... the issue currently is that some models are still relatively expensive e.g. Buco J24 due to market pressures ( though not as steep as they were 10 years or so ago when the massive spike in prices hit and the Asian market was going through the roof ) ... the sad and happy part for me ( depending on your perspective) is that I can often find originals SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than Repros ( which is a bit strange) even 2nd hand. Even original A-2's are now often cheaper than top end repros.

So I'm in the "there's a place for both in my wardrobe" camp ..... currently

 

[navetsea]

so I guess from what I learned here the hierarchy of old item value is:

plain old -> vintage (interesting old) -> classic (acclaimed old)

 

[bn1966]

Great thread!

Being a 'Vintage' 48 & modern 46.....original leather flight jackets don't generally work for me. Aside from a '72 Star Sports Wear G1, everything else I own has been repro & has come from ELC.

G1's are a possibility but even in a vintage 48 the shoulders are a bit on the slender side in the main.

I began my collecting with Repro leathers & nylon.....slowly my repro nylon flight jackets became replaced with originals. Recently I put most of my nylon repros on 'Flea-Bay' & purchased nylon originals with the $$ generated (L-2B, MA1, N-2B, N-3A & N-2A). The only nylon repros kept were an early Alpha MA1 50's copy and a Buzz Transitional L-2A.

Showing my SAAB 900 Swedish Convertible Turbo (80's Winter / Fall Model) in a 'Classic' car show next month alongside various vehicles that will include relatively modern Peugeot & Ford 'base' models. Just what is a Classic? An Amigo of mine will be showing his rare 60's Lancia Jalopy.

 

[Fanch]

Sometimes the memory of having previously owned something vintage is fonder than actually owning it now. Now I recall the time I passed on a really nice red Jaguar XK150 priced at $3250. :eeek:

 

[Sloan1874]

Blimey, Fanch, missing on that would keep me awake at night! The problem with vintage is the attendant upkeep/maintenance: my brother owned an 80s Lotus Espirit, and the damn thing had all sorts of 'behavioural issues', not least an intermittent air con system - hellish, given the proximity of the engine to your back - but the kicker was when one of the cylinders punched through the side of the engine while the car was doing 70mph(ish) on the motorway.

 

[Otter]

You do know what Lotus stands for ? Lots Of Trouble, Usually Serious. Always love the Europa myself.

Fanch, I had a pall with a split screen 120, he rescued it back in the 70's. Sills packed full of damp newspaper, chickens living in it. He regretted all the Jaguar saloons he scrapped back then.

 

[technovox]

Blimey, Fanch, missing on that would keep me awake at night! The problem with vintage is the attendant upkeep/maintenance: my brother owned an 80s Lotus Espirit, and the damn thing had all sorts of 'behavioural issues', not least an intermittent air con system - hellish, given the proximity of the engine to your back - but the kicker was when one of the cylinders punched through the side of the engine while the car was doing 70mph(ish) on the motorway.

Good point. I have a friend that collects vintage cars, and the amount of headache that goes with it is staggering- storing them, lic fees, insurance, maintenance, fuel, etc. As a wise man once told me, “getting in the game is cheap, staying in the game is expensive.” That’s one of the reasons why, personally speaking, I've found collecting vintage and repro jackets such a pleasure- the "getting and staying" is a relative bargain.

 

[Doctor Damage]

It would be easy for someone sized 36-40 to say "just buy an original - the rest are fakes". But for those of us on the larger end of the spectrum, big jackets almost don't exist, and if they are found, they usually carry a steep price and won't fit the way a modern guy is built. I'm not talking about being fat, I'm talking about being big and/or tall.

This is an important point - the average size of western esp North American males has increased over time.