Optimal Weight/Thickness

[dannyk]

In Aero's case the lighter vicenza is actually more expensive than the significantly heavier CXL. I've not seen any maker charging more $ for a finished product based on hide weight/thickness...

I had Langlitz in mind. I know there’s an upcharge for cow over goat etc.. but in Aeros case that’s absolutely true. I believe Schott does it too but they are not in the same category of makers. Since they are great off the rack but not a custom like these higher end tiers. These rambling never ending discussion are enlightening and fun. But as many have said a lot here it the jackets use and personal preference. I’ve seen your jackets and you definitely prefer heavier. Haha. I’m more towards mid weight. Light doesn’t feel right and super heavy has its place but I cant do it regularly.

 

[Superfluous]

If I’m given the option of 3oz horse or steer and 4oz and the price isn’t a huge difference and the its the same maker who makes quality no matter what, of course I’ll take the thicker, that just makes sense. . . . If a well known quality maker is offering a 2-3oz hide for say 1,000 dollars and then they offer a 3.5-4oz option for 1,300, I think it’s a matter of well why wouldn’t I take that?

Because the 3 oz leather *might* be more comfortable to wear, or the 3 oz leather *might* be a better quality leather. You say it "just makes sense" to purchase heavier leather, and "why wouldn't I take" heavier leather. For me, it does not make sense to purchase a 4 oz leather when, IMHO, a 3 oz leather is much more wearable. Likewise, for me, it does not make sense to purchase a 4 oz leather if the 3 oz leather is better quality. To be clear, I am not suggesting that 4 oz leather is better. I am merely noting that there is more to the equation and, even with the same manufacturer (and manufacturing quality), there are still reasons to select a 3 oz leather over a 4 oz leather -- just as there are reasons to select a 4 oz leather over a 3 oz leather.

Some people just like the feel of heavy leather. I do and do not think it superior to "thin" leather, kangaroo or otherwise. I just like it heavy.

Exactly.

In Aero's case the lighter vicenza is actually more expensive than the significantly heavier CXL.

Because the 3 oz Vicenza leather is more expensive than the 4.5 oz Horween leather.

 

[dannyk]

Because the 3 oz leather *might* be more comfortable to wear, or the 3 oz leather *might* be a better quality leather. You say it "just makes sense" to purchase heavier leather, and "why wouldn't I take" heavier leather. For me, it does not make sense to purchase a 4 oz leather when, IMHO, a 3 oz leather is much more wearable. Likewise, for me, it does not make sense to purchase a 4 oz leather if the 3 oz leather is better quality. To be clear, I am not suggesting that 4 oz leather is better. I am merely noting that there is more to the equation and, even with the same manufacturer (and manufacturing quality), there are still reasons to select a 3 oz leather over a 4 oz leather -- just as there are reasons to select a 4 oz leather over a 3 oz leather.



Exactly.



Because the 3 oz Vicenza leather is more expensive than the 4.5 oz Horween leather.

Again these are just some thoughts and ideas as to why. I’m not saying anything is better or worse. I’m sure there’s a ton of reasons why people pick what they do. I was just thinking all things being equal like stitching, hide quality, zoos or buttons etc.. I think a lot of people would go for the heavier option. But clearly heavier doesn’t mean better. And some say heavier is safer for like riding but in today’s world that’s not true when kangaroo and/or padding exists. I can see all sides of the argument though. For me since this thread started as optimal weight/thickness I’m probably right in the middle I prefer 3-3.5oz. It provides protection without being a burden, provides decent wind and cold prtorecion but none I own are winter jackets to be clear. It just feels right to me.

 

[dannyk]

Again these are just some thoughts and ideas as to why. I’m not saying anything is better or worse. I’m sure there’s a ton of reasons why people pick what they do. I was just thinking all things being equal like stitching, hide quality, zoos or buttons etc.. I think a lot of people would go for the heavier option. But clearly heavier doesn’t mean better. And some say heavier is safer for like riding but in today’s world that’s not true when kangaroo and/or padding exists. I can see all sides of the argument though. For me since this thread started as optimal weight/thickness I’m probably right in the middle I prefer 3-3.5oz. It provides protection without being a burden, provides decent wind and cold prtorecion but none I own are winter jackets to be clear. It just feels right to me.

*zips clearly not zoos

 

[ton312]

Because the 3 oz Vicenza leather is more expensive than the 4.5 oz Horween leather.

Yes indeed, my point is that the thickness/weight of the hide has no dollar value that corresponds accordingly with it. Heavy leather doesn't get less expensive as it gets skived down and made lighter...

 

[Edward]

Yes. I know several manufacturers source their hides from Italian tanneries. I can name several that do. Not sure of the laws in Europe or Asia for horse slaughter or usage though. Just a thought I was having. Someone can buy an American hide and a faux fur collar for your jacket and say to themselves how ethical and clean it is but not even consider how terrible the tanning process is. I think if you’re into this stuff there’s no way to win an ethics argument.

Hard to tell without being fully aware. I know some of the old tanning methods have been outlawed throughout the EU owing to improved environmental protection legislation.

I'm going to remind you again that professional pilots in their motorcycles use Kangaroo leather suits....not heavy CXL steerhide nor FQHH. What proof better than that is there to exist to show than thickness doesn't equal better leather. Most of us just use leather jackets as fashion and to be protected from the weather.

I'd still love a halfbelt in Roo for the Summer.

 

[Hh121]

In Aero's case the lighter vicenza is actually more expensive than the significantly heavier CXL. I've not seen any maker charging more $ for a finished product based on hide weight/thickness...

Absolutely right, with exception of Johnson leather which charge 5oz leather more expensive than 4.5oz.

 

[dannyk]

Absolutely right, with exception of Johnson leather which charge 5oz leather more expensive than 4.5oz.

I knew a few upcharged for thickness. Obviously most do not. Stupid post on my part. Trying to rationalize out loud before editing my thoughts. But that’s what you guys are here for. Much more knowledge out there than what little I have occurred so far.

 

[thekiyote]

All clothing serves the purpose of giving a statement about the wearer.

Vintage recreation work wear clothing, like leather jackets, is both a sign of wealth and of being down to earth. The fact is, old methods are harder to employ than modern ones, making the price rise. By wearing it, we're demonstrating that we can afford to purchase something that is more expensive, solely because we like it. They're fairly durable and effective, but if we were going just for durability or effectiveness, there are cheaper/more effective ways to do it, with modern fabrics and techniques.

Yet, at the same time, there are a lot of old styles we could be choosing to embrace, yet for the most part, we're pulling from the styles of blue collar workers of fifty to a hundred years ago.

There is a tension there that I personally really like.

 

[Superfluous]

Yes indeed, my point is that the thickness/weight of the hide has no dollar value that corresponds accordingly with it. Heavy leather doesn't get less expensive as it gets skived down and made lighter...

There are many factors underlying the cost of leather, including in particular the quality of the initial hide, the level of correction, the tanning process, and the finishing process. All other things being equal, a high quality, uncorrected, hide that is veg, pit tanned over a 30-180 day period is going to cost more than a poor quality, highly corrected hide that is chrome tanned in one hour.

Isn't the thickness of the hide determined at the separation stage (e.g., when the top layer is separated from the bottom layer)? In other words, when separating the top and bottom layer, doesn't the hide manufacturer decide what thickness to make the top layer and proceed accordingly? Presumably the top layer thickness is dependent on various issues, including the quality of the hide and what top layer thickness it will support (again, strictly guesswork here). I am no expert, but it sounds terrible inefficient to initially create a 1.5 mm hide at the separation stage, then skive it down to 1.2 mm (I am not saying this doesn't happen).

 

[ton312]

There are many factors underlying the cost of leather, including in particular the quality of the initial hide, the level of correction, the tanning process, and the finishing process. All other things being equal, a high quality, uncorrected, hide that is veg, pit tanned over a 30-180 day period is going to cost more than a poor quality, highly corrected hide that is chrome tanned in one hour.

Isn't the thickness of the hide determined at the separation stage (e.g., when the top layer is separated from the bottom layer)? In other words, when separating the top and bottom layer, doesn't the hide manufacturer decide what thickness to make the top layer and proceed accordingly? Presumably the top layer thickness is dependent on various issues, including the quality of the hide and what top layer thickness it will support (again, strictly guesswork here). I am no expert, but it sounds terrible inefficient to initially create a 1.5 mm hide at the separation stage, then skive it down to 1.2 mm (I am not saying this doesn't happen).

Good question and to be honest I don't know...I do know Alan told me he could make me a 6oz leather jacket. He said he could have a 10 to 12 oz piece of leather skived down to whatever thickness I preferred.
The tanning process surely contributes to the cost but we don't see too many (if any) poor quality leathers around here. Not to mention the prices are set by the tanneries and the end product, jacket or whatever has a mark up on material applied. I've seen somewhat large chunks of Shinki and CXL going pretty damn cheap on Etsy, not enough for jacket of course but still enough to recognize there's a significant mark up in material.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

5 to 6 oz leather..?? Who and why would anyone want to tackle that..?? Could barely move in it..seems to me.

 

[Hh121]

That would be me, but I am just not interesting Johnson leather.

 

[navetsea]

I think people here are just picturing a crap mall jacket leather when talking about thin leather and it's not the case and will never be.

Thin leather is what you can see in the high quality kangaroo leather, goatskin that most makers use, the warhorse hide that Eastman uses, the original horshide A-2 you can see still standing today, a lot of vintage leather jackets often found in great condition, lots of vintage shoes and boots still standing today, modern dress shoes...etc.

Thinking that a thin leather means bad quality or lesser quality than the heavy horsehide or steerhide used today by Aero and other makers is just plain wrong means that people aren't informed but rather sold on the marketing given to them.

I'm going to remind you again that professional pilots in their motorcycles use Kangaroo leather suits....not heavy CXL steerhide nor FQHH. What proof better than that is there to exist to show than thickness doesn't equal better leather. Most of us just use leather jackets as fashion and to be protected from the weather.

come on, compare apple to apple, we're not that stupid, compare thick horse to thin horse, thick cow to thin cow.
when you talk across different beasts all bets are off.
nowadays racers and footbalers pick roo hide because it is light and has better strength of its thickness compared to other hides or skin if the suit has to be made that thin and lightweight and weight matters in competitive sport, beside when it ripped as long as the rider is more or less protected by titanium plates and airbag, they have budget to make another racing suit.
if you prefer lighter hide then go for it, no need to label people who like the feel of thick leather as uninformed and sold on to the marketing campaign.

 

[ton312]

5 to 6 oz leather..?? Who and why would anyone want to tackle that..?? Could barely move in it..seems to me.

I believe a member here has commissioned several 6oz leather jackets. I can't remember his handle tho and Alan did reference him for contact should I be interested. I will say 6oz would be overkill for me. I think if you googled too much of a good thing you'd see a picture of a 6oz jacket. It's not for me but I salute those with the sand to wear it (And the medical insurance).

 

[navetsea]

I suspect 2mm+ leather jacket can't be worn honest, I bet it needs water treatment around the elbow and shoulder to help breaking in... but when it is broken in, I want to see how the sleeve creases would look I bet it's going to be jaw dropping.

 

[Guppy]

I suspect 2mm+ leather jacket can't be worn honest, I bet it needs water treatment around the elbow and shoulder to help breaking in... but when it is broken in, I want to see how the sleeve creases would look I bet it's going to be jaw dropping.

2mm is where it starts getting good!

 

[Edward]

5 to 6 oz leather..?? Who and why would anyone want to tackle that..?? Could barely move in it..seems to me.

Oh, I could see Lost Worlds maybe trying it. I don't fancy it either, but maybe we're just jacket queens who can't cope with proper, manly leather....

 

[Monitor]

My both Natal jackets were 6+ oz and they were both buttery soft. Especially the one that I have now. Definitely a lot less restrictive than some 2.5 oz jackets I have tried on. Heavy leather doesn't need to be uncomfortable. It will be heavy but not uncomfortable or restrictive.

 

[dannyk]

I would imagine as I suspected earlier a lot of stiffness, break in time, and constriction has a lot more to do with tanning and finish than thickness. I have a 3.5-4oz jacket that is beyond supple and comfortable and a 2.5 maybe 3oz jacket that is barely broken in and is very stiff and harder to wear.