Ok, so some things in the golden era were not too cool...

[LocktownDog]

Frozen waffles. I like frozen waffles. And I would miss 'em.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Frozen waffles were introduced in 1953.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

... being a musician living in that time period would be a dream come true musically speaking...

Holy Toledo, yes! New Orleans in the 'teens, Chicago in the '20s, Kansas City in the '30s, Harlem in the '40s: musical feasts beyond compare.

 

[Edward]

Thats funny Edward that you would say that yet be here.

Why so? I find an enormous amount about the mid twentieth century utterly fascinating, but on balance I certainly would not care to live then as compared to now with the advantages I have now as compared to, say, the Thirties. I'm interested in the history of the war..... and everything I read aout it makes me more and more glad I didn't have to live through it (much the same can certainly be said of my own country of origin, the history of which between 1912 and 1923 I am absolutely fascinated by. Sure wouldn't want to have lived through those turbulent years, though). I don't see this as at all incongruous with the FL.... [huh]

My folks and all their friends were the WWII generation and all of them, ALL of them say the same thing, that even with the war and growing up in the depression they were glad they were born when they were because life was better then. How do you explain that? There were more freedoms, less government control, less taxes, one person could work and women (if they chose to) could stay home and raise a family. Families ate together, played together, prayed together. Life was simpler, I'd go in a second.

Horses for courses. The "one income family" thing has been exposed time and again as a myth for all but the very well off. It was certainly not the case for the majority of my family. I'm sure geography also has a part to play in it - I doubt my family members would have elected to live through the war again, and they were all lucky enough to have been able to live out the war in a part of Europe that wasn't directly on a front line, or too badly hit by air-raids, nor were any of them, again down to location, ever conscripted. Still, it hit them all hard in terms of rationing and everything else. In some ways, maybe there were more freedoms back then, though I suppose a lot depends on what you wanted. I think I'd have found the social climate where I would have been expected to be married by mid twenties and produce children (whether I wanted them or not) extremely oppressive. Best way I can summarise it.... I'm a dieselpunk, not quasi-Amish. I am interested in the past and keen to preserve what was good about it, but the idea of wanting to stop the clocks and ditch everything past a certain date is, to me, anathema.

Trying to think back over my own lifespan..... I had a very happy childhood in the Seventies and Eighties, too young to see all the unpleasantness of those decades. My memories of that period in time are much more pleasant, I'm sure, than they would have been had I been ten to twenty years older. I'd quite like to visit them again, but I know for a fact I'd not have enjoyed them had I had to live through them as an adult.

As I've occasionally said before when this topic's come up, I don't really think we've moved ahead as much as we've moved sideways.

Exactly. I don't think anyone's claiming the present is anything other than far from perfect, just as the past was far from perfect. The only thing I object to is this blinkered notion that the world is going to hell in a handbasket and that change is intrinsically bad.

I live in germany. So I won't. Nice clothes though^^

Anybody who would voluntarily choose to live through that war (or, indeed, any other) over again is at best misguided, IMO. DArk, dark period of human history. Naughty old Hugo Boss sure knew how to design a good looking uniform, though - pity some people ruined it for all of us!

Hi Edward

I agree that the whole "against anything different" wasn't great by any means, but that element in small town America is still very prevalent and helpful. Helpful in the sense that the real phobia is more "we take care of our own" as opposed to "we're against anything different"

My Mom lives in a small town in Illinois. She grew up in Kentucky, but has lived in the same town now since since 1953 or 4. When she needs something (she's 80) someone goes and gets it for her. When my Mom called the ambulance for my Dad, the two on call EMT's showed up and so did 4 other EMT's that heard the call and who it was.

I grew up in smalltown Ireland and still spend a couple of weeks a year there - I know exactly what it's like. As with so many thins (and in so many time periods), yes it is lovely when people look after each other and there is a lot to be said for that old-style community spirit, though that still doesn't excuse some of the attitudes expressed towards "outsiders", whether explicit or covert. Both good and bad..... as with so many things.

We do have transplants from outside the US, mainly Eastern Europe, not Mexico, and they get along fairly well when they try to get along. They have a harder time when they don't, an example is the High School Freshman who wouldn't stand for the National Anthem because it "wasn't hers".

Matter of personal opinion, I suppose - I like mutual respect, which cuts boths ways. Personally I'd object to any political and/or national anthem being played in an educational context, but that's a whole nother ballgame, and this is not the field of play for that one. In terms of blow ins (and speaking as one myself), I'm all for helthy integration as opposed to Stepfordesque assimiliation.

Personally, I find the whole "push" towards "embracing alternate lifestyles" annoying. There were / are only a radical few who want to string up all of the (pick a minority group of any type), and the rest of us get to take credit for their personalities. The Government can't force a group of people to like another group (see Yugoslavia) and it's a waste of time and money to try.

no, nobody can force anyone into a more reasonable attitude, that's true. You can't legislate against prejudice, but I'm all for legislating against discrimiation borne of prejudice.

I'm angry and sick and tired of hearing that I'm foolish to think it was better then and that I would be shocked if I actually had my wish. No, no I wouldn't be.

I think you'd be just fine, Rue. Unfortunately there are a lot of others who wouldn't, but still want to damn the modern world all to hell for whatever reason. Here in the UK there is a particularly unpleasant subset of the vintage scene (to date still very much a fringe minority, thankfully) whose nostalgia is a mere surface front for a much nastier desire to live in a "Britain" that didn't let the Windrush land.

Maybe because some people just like the fashion/music? I don't think "it's fine to live now" people are more aggressive.

No, that's not my experience either. If anything, to be honest the aggression I've encountered over the years is much more likely to come from the "modern life is rubbish" set who usually desire to live in an idealised version of a time period anywhere between ten and forty years before their birth. As i see it, one of the lovely things about the web is that there is room for everyone's opinion and we can all get along if we have a little mutual respect. I suppose a lot of the apparent aggression (from whichever camp) is either caused by or in itself arises from the inherent limitations of the written word, viz that it is easy enough to misread 'tone of voice' online and read a confrontational air where none is intended.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Holy Toledo, yes! New Orleans in the 'teens, Chicago in the '20s, Kansas City in the '30s, Harlem in the '40s: musical feasts beyond compare.

:eusa_clap Yes. I really love this music. But still...maybe as a graphic designer I couldn't afford the concerts.

http://bemberess.com/portfolio/assets/whitecollar/wc_book/whitecollar.htm

 

[LizzieMaine]

No, that's not my experience either. If anything, to be honest the aggression I've encountered over the years is much more likely to come from the "modern life is rubbish" set who usually desire to live in an idealised version of a time period anywhere between ten and forty years before their birth. As i see it, one of the lovely things about the web is that there is room for everyone's opinion and we can all get along if we have a little mutual respect. I suppose a lot of the apparent aggression (from whichever camp) is either caused by or in itself arises from the inherent limitations of the written word, viz that it is easy enough to misread 'tone of voice' online and read a confrontational air where none is intended.

Conversely, my beef is with the knee-jerk assumption that anyone born before the Baby Boom was automatically (1). a virulent racist, determined to resort to the rope at any time in order keep anyone who wasn't white in their place, (2), a virulent chain-smoking sexist if male and if female a cringing, compliant barefoot-and-pregnant housewife afraid to assert herself in any way, and (3), a vicious homophobe who would gladly have tossed any male who walked from the hips or any unmarried woman in sensible shoes off the nearest bridge. Anyone who's taken the time to examine the realities of the Era *beyond* the fashion catalogues and the music charts knows that none of these things are true -- but too often, especially among young people, there is no awareness of the Era beyond the idea that it was some kind of elegant, well-tailored but violent moral wasteland, which had to be rescued from its own depravity by those who have followed. I believe such a generation should be judged by exactly the same rigorous standard they seek to apply to those who came before.

I'm an American, and can't speak for what has gone on or goes on today in other countries or other cultures. But by all the evidence I've seen in nearly fifty years on earth, we've come nowhere near as far as we want to think we have. And acknowledging that, by taking the beam out of our own eyes before presuming to take the splinter out of our grandparents' eyes, is the only way we're ever going make any *real* progress.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

:eusa_clap Yes. I really love this music. But still...maybe as a graphic designer I couldn't afford the concerts.

http://bemberess.com/portfolio/assets/whitecollar/wc_book/whitecollar.htm

In the places and decades I mentioned, you could have afforded to see the musicians play. Jazz/swing venues were inexpensive back then.

 

[bil_maxx]

The reason IMHO that they're called the Good Old Days is because we have forgotten the Bad Stuff from then and only the Good Stuff is desirable. So the past will be remembered as The Good Old Days. No Antibiotics, have pneumonia, it was Adios Amigo.
Racial issues. Well I have seen racism within families. Same parents, hispanic, one child SLIGHTLY darker than his siblings and he is subjected to all sorts of racial slurs BY HIS SIBLINGS! Same for a child lighter that his sibs. Unbelievable but true.
Things are starting to clear up, I need another drink.

Wow I couldn't agree more. If I really get my Dad talking about the good old days, the lack of internal plumbing, heating and clothing and shoes eventually comes out, but not right away. That is what I meant in my first comment about the standard of living being so high today. People can complain and cry all they like about the economy and inflation, but the fact is we are living longer and in hugely superior surroundings than one generation ago. You can get upset about China making everything in your house, but costs are kept low by them so that we can enjoy modern conveniences. A toaster or a dishwasher cost less now than they did even 20 years ago if you adjust for inflation.

And imagine living in a house in Canada or the US with no running water or central heating. There are some, but that number is so tiny compared with the huge majority of people. In 50 years we will be telling people that we grew up in the good old days too because we will forget the bad stuff just like our parents did.

As regards the racism, I witnessed the same with a very white bread English family that lived in colonial England. One of the daughters was darker than the other children, slightly olive skinned, and her family referred to her as "The Gypsy". That was quite an insult she never got over. She is 79 years old and told me recently that whe was still upset by that.

 

[Edward]

Conversely, my beef is with the knee-jerk assumption that anyone born before the Baby Boom was automatically (1). a virulent racist, determined to resort to the rope at any time in order keep anyone who wasn't white in their place, (2), a virulent chain-smoking sexist if male and if female a cringing, compliant barefoot-and-pregnant housewife afraid to assert herself in any way, and (3), a vicious homophobe who would gladly have tossed any male who walked from the hips or any unmarried woman in sensible shoes off the nearest bridge. Anyone who's taken the time to examine the realities of the Era *beyond* the fashion catalogues and the music charts knows that none of these things are true -- but too often, especially among young people, there is no awareness of the Era beyond the idea that it was some kind of elegant, well-tailored but violent moral wasteland, which had to be rescued from its own depravity by those who have followed. I believe such a generation should be judged by exactly the same rigorous standard they seek to apply to those who came before.

Absolutely. Personally, whenever I hear my grandmother refer to anyone non-white as a "Darkie" for the umpteenth time, I try to cling to the words of Arthur Miller - "Even a genius is limited by his own time. I would rather be treated by the most ordinary contemporary medical school graduate than Hippocrates himself...."

Certainly, stereotypes cut both ways, and it can't be forgotten that if everyone back in the day was a nasty ole WASP racist, we wouldn't have made any of the progress we claim to by this point. Somebody must have disaproved of slavery when it was legal or it would never have been banned....

I'm an American, and can't speak for what has gone on or goes on today in other countries or other cultures. But by all the evidence I've seen in nearly fifty years on earth, we've come nowhere near as far as we want to think we have. And acknowledging that, by taking the beam out of our own eyes before presuming to take the splinter out of our grandparents' eyes, is the only way we're ever going make any *real* progress.

All goes back to respect, tolerance, and having a little bit of a think before we shoot our mouths off, doesn't it?

In the places and decades I mentioned, you could have afforded to see the musicians play. Jazz/swing venues were inexpensive back then.

how affordable was pre-recorded music back then? Were people just culturally more inclined to go and hear live music, hence more work, hence lower "unit cost", to put it crudely, or did recorded music really help to kill live performance?

(FWIW, i recently chanced across some reality show where four women went to and rated each other's weddings. One ignoramus gave special criticism to another bride's choice of having alive band at her wedding because "If I want to hear the Stones, I want to hear the real people play it, not some band" :eusa_doh: ).

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Were people just culturally more inclined to go and hear live music, ...

It had to do with two things: the improvisational nature of jazz (which assured that you'd never hear the "same" performance twice), and the dance-oriented nature of swing music, which made people want to dance together in a public venue (with live music, because renowned dance venues didn't play pre-recorded music on speakers back then).

 

[LizzieMaine]

In the States, there was free music on the radio seven nights a week -- live pickups from hotel rooms, dance halls and night clubs from 1130 pm until 1 or 2 in the morning. And if you wanted records, the expensive labels were 75 cents a disc, the bargain labels 35 cents.

Most hotel restaurants and nightclubs had a cover charge of around $2 a person, which wasn't cheap by the standards of the time but was within reach of most ordinary people out for a special night on the town.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Absolutely. Personally, whenever I hear my grandmother refer to anyone non-white as a "Darkie" for the umpteenth time, I try to cling to the words of Arthur Miller - "Even a genius is limited by his own time. I would rather be treated by the most ordinary contemporary medical school graduate than Hippocrates himself...."

When I was about seven years old, I called some neighborhood kid a "n-----face," for some reason long forgotten. My grandmother heard me, grabbed me by the ear, and cracked me so hard across my face with the flat of her hand that I saw stars. "Don't you EVER use a word like that again," she hissed. And I never forgot that.

 

[1961MJS]

...If you think racism is better go to the southern US or talk to someone in AZ or California about the Mexican border issues and you will still see it. ...
Those things haven't changed. What has changed is the self respect and respect for others that people once had....

Hi Rue

From my limited personal experience, I really disagree with the first quoted statement. Granted, the Klan still exists in the South. I lived in Decatur AL from 1990 until the 3rd quarter of 1994, and I met 1 (ONE) Klan Member. He and the black teenager at the checkout line in Kroger were VERY nice to each other. For some reason, that bothered me. The other black / white relationships I saw and was a part of were more "regular" and cordial than those in Illinois (small town) or Wichita KS.

I couldn't agree more with the second statement, no respect for others because they have no respect for themselves.

Just my $0.02 and worth both pennies.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

.
One legacy of World War II on my French grandmother (who lived through some pretty miserable parts of it as an adult): for the rest of her life, she ate just about every part of an animal (and fish) that was edible. Eyes, bone marrow, cartilage -- and more that I won't get into. Why? "La guerre!", she'd reply. (I think she secretly developed a taste for all that stuff.)

 

[LizzieMaine]

You can get upset about China making everything in your house, but costs are kept low by them so that we can enjoy modern conveniences.

That's exactly what *does* upset me, actually -- a generation of people who tut-tut about the evils of the past, but are perfectly happy to surround themselves with cheap gadgetry manufactured by slave labor. Can we get a beam removed from an eye here?

And imagine living in a house in Canada or the US with no running water or central heating.

We didn't have central heating until I was 18 -- a kerosene stove in the kitchen and another one in the living room, and the only problem with it was having to get up early to light it. Didn't bother me then, likely it wouldn't bother me now.

 

[Blackjack]

That's exactly what *does* upset me, actually -- a generation of people who tut-tut about the evils of the past, but are perfectly happy to surround themselves with cheap gadgetry manufactured by slave labor. Can we get a beam removed from an eye here?

Thank you Lizzie, people talking here how toasters and refrigerators are cheaper now than 30 years ago...no doubt, they are made to last about 5 years, throw it away buy a new one. When was the last time you had a TV repairman in your home, nope throw it out buy a new one.

 

[Flicka]

This discussion reminds me of Rawls' veil of ignorance - if we didn't know who we were to be; a meth addict in LA, a German doctor or a woman in Iran today or a secretary in New York, a farmer in Stalin's Russia or a member of the House of Lords in 1940, what would we choose? I know I don't know. I see good and bad things about both eras. Just as silly as it would be for me to deny that there are good points about living as a modern day Swede or a Golden Era American journalist, it would be equally strange to deny that there are places it would be very bad to be in back then (like, say, Stalingrad in 1942) or now (like an orphanage for HIV positive kids un central Africa). Like I said, I would hope for a future where we could have a little bit of the good things from both eras, but all in all, I'm glad the choice was made for me.

But being a writer of historical fiction set in the 17th and 18th century, I'm glad I wasn't plunked down in either century. I love those periods, but living there? I'd rather not.

 

[Lady Day]

I don't quite understand on how a forum such as this there's so many people who are quick to say "Oh you wouldn't like it if you had to live back then, it was sooo this and that." I can only go by MY parents and Grandparents who all said times were much nicer to live in back then. I've never been afraid of hard work so that doesn't scare me and being a musician living in that time period would be a dream come true musically speaking...

I wouldn't live back then. Even if I were a millionaire of the time, you would not see me back in 1935. Why, because Id be black and a woman, two very limiting things in that era. Sure, I could advance up the ladder in my own culture probably make it to the top,and have a place in high regard, but that would be a bubble. A very small one in the large one of white America. To brake through to the real mainstream, for lack of a better word was nearly impossible. Save some caveats for musical talent and the like, but even those were "just write/preform, don't think".

What I find interesting about the romanticizing of the past eras, especially now, is that we extract the good, which is expected. I wouldn't want the everyday tension of being out too late and possibly being stopped by the po po for whatever reason without the protections I have today. Not being able to say my mind to someone who was not like me for fear of some sort of withholding of advancement, or frankly being able to have my selection of schools limited because of my color. Of course I'm speaking generally, not as if this would happen everyday, but all I heard from family was the tension of what *could* happen if they stepped out of line. Can you imagine living with that stress, especially with today's mindset knowing there is more?

My granny graduated from high school in 1938. Granted, not many people went to HS of any color during that time, but her school was called Central Colored High School. So the stress of coming from this time to a time when your color and even your gender affected you so blatantly as to be written into laws and legislature would not be my idea of a better simpler time.

I know, I rambled.

LD

 

[Edward]

It had to do with two things: the improvisational nature of jazz (which assured that you'd never hear the "same" performance twice), and the dance-oriented nature of swing music, which made people want to dance together in a public venue (with live music, because renowned dance venues didn't play pre-recorded music on speakers back then).

Ah! Yes, I hadn't thought of those angles.... interesting.

In the States, there was free music on the radio seven nights a week -- live pickups from hotel rooms, dance halls and night clubs from 1130 pm until 1 or 2 in the morning. And if you wanted records, the expensive labels were 75 cents a disc, the bargain labels 35 cents.

Most hotel restaurants and nightclubs had a cover charge of around $2 a person, which wasn't cheap by the standards of the time but was within reach of most ordinary people out for a special night on the town.

In relative terms, what was the average person bringing home in the month then?

When I was about seven years old, I called some neighborhood kid a "n-----face," for some reason long forgotten. My grandmother heard me, grabbed me by the ear, and cracked me so hard across my face with the flat of her hand that I saw stars. "Don't you EVER use a word like that again," she hissed. And I never forgot that.

This is it - as you say, not everyone of a certain generation had the same attitudes. Your grandmother sounds like quite a character. I'm sure my grandmother would have been horrified by the same word too. Language changes and moves on and things that once were acceptable later aren't - look at how "coloured" went from polite to prejudiced in a generation, and now we have people using the term "people of colour" again. I find it fascinating.

.
One legacy of World War II on my French grandmother (who lived through some pretty miserable parts of it as an adult): for the rest of her life, she ate just about every part of an animal (and fish) that was edible. Eyes, bone marrow, cartilage -- and more that I won't get into. Why? "La guerre!", she'd reply. (I think she secretly developed a taste for all that stuff.)

It's interesting how the deprivations of that period affected people. Many became so very concerned about waste, while others almost went the other way when they suddenly had.... stuff - a sort of watered down version of the materialism Elvis displayed when he suddenly had everything after growing up with nothing.

Thank you Lizzie, people talking here how toasters and refrigerators are cheaper now than 30 years ago...no doubt, they are made to last about 5 years, throw it away buy a new one. When was the last time you had a TV repairman in your home, nope throw it out buy a new one.

This is an unfortunate by product of real world economics, alas. A shrinking world is the reality, a global village, and therefore it is inevitable that when it comes to manufacturing goods will be produced where it is cheaper to do so. That's just a reality. The demand for every cheaper products has led to lowering quality often in order to drop unit charge. While I have no doubt that many manufacturers are only too happy to take advantage of this to facilitate built in obsolescence and therefore return sales, a huge amount of this is driven by market demand for cheaper goods. I don't believe that quality has disappeared. We now have a wider range of choice - sure, I can buy a toaster for next to nothing that might not last very long if I use it a lot, or I can pay much more for a much better one. I do lament contemporary culture's general trend towards the disposable, though. In part it's the result of a lack of the skills. For whatever reason, my own generation (generation X - born between 22 November 1963 and 25 May 1977) do tend to bin things and buy replacements rather than try to repair. A lot of it is not knowing where to start.... I currently have a DAB radio that needs a new speaker, but am having trouble finding somewhere that does repairs. Partly this is, I suppose, to do with the changing nature of commerce: if we all buy everything online, then there aren't the little independents doing repairs, only call centres covering products that go faulty under warranty. Stuff gets thrown out all the time that I'm sure could be repaired. Sometimes it's just not economical (I'm currently looking into the cost of resoling a pair of boots and expecting that I'll be cheaper just buying a new pair than repairing the existing ones), though the physical waste still saddens me. Sometimes too I think it's technology - like the old example of cars back in the day being something one could learn to repair at home where now you need all sorts of specialist knowledge and proprietary tools. Sometimes that's a trade off I'm prepared to make in exchange for the advantages the technology brings (computers, mp3 players, digital cameras), sometimes it isn't. Maybe some of the worst excesses of our free market, disposable economy will be curbed by the current financial downturn. Nothing would make me glad of this recession, but if we can make the best of a bad situation and re-evaluate our priorities as a culture that certainly won't hurt.

 

[rue]

Hi Rue

From my limited personal experience, I really disagree with the first quoted statement. Granted, the Klan still exists in the South. I lived in Decatur AL from 1990 until the 3rd quarter of 1994, and I met 1 (ONE) Klan Member. He and the black teenager at the checkout line in Kroger were VERY nice to each other. For some reason, that bothered me. The other black / white relationships I saw and was a part of were more "regular" and cordial than those in Illinois (small town) or Wichita KS.

I couldn't agree more with the second statement, no respect for others because they have no respect for themselves.

Just my $0.02 and worth both pennies.

Well, I grew up in California, lived in Virginia for about 6 years (2001-2007) and then in Ohio and now I'm in Arizona. The only place where I ever found truly blatant racism was in the rural town where I lived in Virginia. I'm not saying it doesn't exist everywhere or that the entire south is racist, but for just two examples... I saw bumper stickers that say Coon hunting with a picture of a man in black face on the backs of people's trucks and someone burned a cross in the yard of a black family that moved into an all white neighborhood. Those two things among many others and including the fact that they are still called the N word when they are not around tells me a different story.