Not to be political but.THIS IS WRONG

[Fading Fast]

... Not surprisingly, the Soviet Union also stepped up its flag-related patriotism during these periods, instituting a range of laws to protect the red hammer-and-sickle banner from physical desecration or inappropriate display.

What citizen, um, comrade, in the old USSR had the nerve to desecrate the Hammer and Sickle flag? Man, you would think that would be a long time in the Gulag. When you are a dictatorship, usually, you can control things like this well. That said, if Lizzie posted it, then I am 100% sure it is true. I'm just stunned the the old Soviet Union had this problem.

Also, great history on the Lady Columbia.

 

[Big J]

What citizen, um, comrade, in the old USSR had the nerve to desecrate the Hammer and Sickle flag? Man, you would think that would be a long time in the Gulag. When you are a dictatorship, usually, you can control things like this well. That said, if Lizzie posted it, then I am 100% sure it is true. I'm just stunned the the old Soviet Union had this problem.

Also, great history on the Lady Columbia.

I don't know if you remember the early 90's, when the eastern european Soviet satellite states started to revolt against their 'communist' governments, but in almost every case- the GDR, Romania, etc, people were carrying the communist era flag with the hammer and sickle/compass/(some kind of tool) part cut out as a symbol of their revolution. Did that come as a rebellion against communist era laws that forbade such behavior, or were their cases of flags mutilated in this way during (say) the Polish Uprising of 1956 that prompted the introduction of this law?

Or did revolutionaries just have a really hard time finding a custom flag shop that was open at the time?

 

[LizzieMaine]

The penalty for flag desecration in the USSR was a fine equivalent to $75 US dollars and two years in common jail or a year of "enforced labor." Interestingly, the Soviet people felt about their flag very much as Americans do about theirs, especially after World War II:

"When I see our flag rippling in the breeze, my heart fills with pride," a middle-aged Russian woman with an advanced degree in physics said in Moscow recently.

"It's so automatic that even when I see the flag flying from a building where it always flies, I feel that way," she said. " . . . When there are parades, like May Day or the Nov. 7 anniversary, and I see all the flags together, I feel that the whole nation is on the march.

"It's all quite inexplicable when I talk about it abstractly like this, but that is what it means to be Russian, I guess."

-- "Tradition of Veneration: Why Flag Case Stirred Such A Flap", Los Angeles Times, 7/4/1989

The USSR flag is still venerated by many Russians as a symbol of the "Great Patriotic War." The actual flag hoisted by the Red Army over the Reichstag in 1945 is considered a sacred national relic, in much the same way Americans view the Fort McHenry Star Spangled Banner.

..which is why Banderaite Ukrainian ultra-nationalists choose to burn not a Russian Federation flag but a copy of the "Victory Banner," knowing this will cause extreme outrage among ethnic Russian Ukrainians.

As far as post-Soviet flag use in the former Soviet states, in many cases the Soviet-era flag was simply a traditional local flag with a Communist Party logo superimposed -- the GDR flag, for example, was simply the gold-red-black tricolor of the Weimar Republic with the Party insignia added. The Weimar flag was used in its original form until the late fifties, when the Party seal was added to distinguish the East German flag from the West German, which was also the old Weimar banner.

 

[winterland1]

To retire a flag properly is a very solemn & respectful ceremony. When the field of stars is taken & each stripe is individually separated & burned, a US Flag is properly disposed.
The ashes are properly discarded & the metal grommets are gathered to be given to a worthy custodian.
I have no issue with flag-themed articles of clothing but taking a flag & cutting it up to make a garment is no proper, especially one that has been flown in the manner intended....

We have done this the last 3 years for our Cub Scout pack camping trip. We ask around for a flag that has seen it's better days. We do it at the end of the evening. We read about some of the history of our flag and significance.
The Scouts are very respectful during the ceremony and everyone goes off to thier tents to sleep, no talking. Great learning experience.

 

[coalchak01]

It started with the U.S. Using an image of an old coot in a U.S. Flag top hat to recruit soldiers in WWI. I WANT YOU FOR THE U.S. ARMY. Then there was that Jimmy Cagney movie where the guy was a walking flag.
Now I am sure there are condoms and toilet paper with flags on them not to deep inside.the Internet.
In between big business took that flaggish Uncle Sam and used him to sell everything from cookies to cars to computers. If a false or irrelevant show of the flag SELLS capitalist crap to consumers festooned in red, white and blue, that's good for business and what's more American than that?
Protesters might desecrate or burn the flag, but it takes big biz to make it trivial, banal and shorn of anything sacred.! And the government started it.
Happy Memorial Day!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[vitanola]

It started with the U.S. Using an image of an old coot in a U.S. Flag top hat to recruit soldiers in WWI. I WANT YOU FOR THE U.S. ARMY. Then there was that Jimmy Cagney movie where the guy was a walking flag.
Now I am sure there are condoms and toilet paper with flags on them not to deep inside.the Internet.
In between big business took that flaggish Uncle Sam and used him to sell everything from cookies to cars to computers. If a false or irrelevant show of the flag SELLS capitalist crap to consumers festooned in red, white and blue, that's good for business and what's more American than that?
Protesters might desecrate or burn the flag, but it takes big biz to make it trivial, banal and shorn of anything sacred.! And the government started it.
Happy Memorial Day!




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not really. James Montgomery Flagg's famous recruiting poster was painted forty years after the appearance of this trade card:


Here are some more advertising images dating to between the 'sixties and the 'ought's:










And this spectacular image, advertising of all things Lunkenheimer oilers for stationary engines!


Then should we go fully a generation earlier, we have "Brother Johnathan", the anthropomorphization of our nation which preceded "Uncle Sam" in the popular mind peddling whetstones like the practical and thrifty Yankee that we all aspired to be in that halcyon era of Good Feeling.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

It started with the U.S. Using an image of an old coot in a U.S. Flag top hat to recruit soldiers in WWI. I WANT YOU FOR THE U.S. ARMY. Then there was that Jimmy Cagney movie where the guy was a walking flag.
Now I am sure there are condoms and toilet paper with flags on them not to deep inside.the Internet.
In between big business took that flaggish Uncle Sam and used him to sell everything from cookies to cars to computers. If a false or irrelevant show of the flag SELLS capitalist crap to consumers festooned in red, white and blue, that's good for business and what's more American than that?
Protesters might desecrate or burn the flag, but it takes big biz to make it trivial, banal and shorn of anything sacred.! And the government started it.
Happy Memorial Day!



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

From what I gather, it wasn't the fact of using the 'stars & stripes' as an advertising gimic that offended some forum members but the use of what appeared to be an actual flag, which apparently isn't the done thing. The fact that the flag was most probably bought off eBay, an American company, payed for by Paypal, an American company, used in an American company's advert to sell American products to Americans, is irrelevant.

 

[Big J]

The fact that the flag was most probably bought off eBay, an American company, payed for by Paypal, an American company, used in an American company's advert to sell American products to Americans, is irrelevant.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point.
Some people felt that it was disrespectful of Stetson to make an advert that featured a real flag draped around a model, and touching the ground.

There seems to be some value in debating whether or not that is appropriate.

However, I don't see how it makes any difference as to the nationality of the companies that made, sold, or facilitated the payment for the flag in question.
Can you explain?

If I buy a Nissan, and pay for it with my Japanese credit card, and then go out and park inconsiderably, or drive dangerously, whose fault is that? Nissan's? My credit card company's?

No. It would be my fault.

Why are you attempting to apologize for Stetson by apportioning blame to companies that have no responsibility for how the purchaser used the flag?

That's a bigger offense against my sensibilities than the advert- people's unwillingness to accept responsibility for themselves and their actions.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

However, I don't see how it makes any difference as to the nationality of the companies that made, sold, or facilitated the payment for the flag in question.
Can you explain?

I'll try....................... can you seperate mammon from the flag ? it would be very hypocritical to deny that a major factor of America's greatness is the dollar & it's place as the world's major currency, America wouldn't be what it is today without it's opulent wealth & excesses & the American flag symbolises capitalism at it's greatest. I wasn't "attempting to apologise" as you put it, for Stetson's use of an already over-used icon I was merely being facicious in pointing out a certain irony.
You can have your cake & eat it but don't complain if you get indigestion.
On a different note, I suppose it could be argued that Stetson did have a part to play in America being the great nation we all know & love today but I'll leave that debate to more learned historians.

 

[LizzieMaine]

If there's one thing the Boys From Marketing have always known how to manipulate in the most shameless way possible it's patriotism. Advertising during the world wars went to ridiculous extremes trying tie the most trivial of products to the war effort. Did you know the "Modern Design" of Pall Mall cigarettes was the same concept of "Modern Design" as the Allied military aircraft bombing Berlin? Did you know that the guy who wipes your windshield at the Shell station was trained in a manner "patterned after Army Air Corps standards?" Did you know that OD-30 disinfectant was winning the war by reducing the kitchen stink from rendered waste fat?

There is no sales concept so cheesy or sleazy that the Boys won't embrace it if they can make a buck from it, and manipulated, synthesized patriotism has always been one of those sure-shot sales themes that always gets the public hopping. "Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet!"

In that respect, the Stetson ad merely took the concept of "wrap it in the flag" more literally than most. Some might think it was all smirking irony, but I'm sure there were executives who approved that ad and thought it would promote warm, fuzzy "All American" feelings among many who saw it.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

and manipulated, synthesized patriotism

Philosophically speaking, all patriotism is manipulation & synthesized as it is installed in us from childhood, we are not born patriots & the degree of the patriotism we feel is pretty much dependant on the patriotic fervour, or lack of, we have been exposed to from infancy.
True enough, both advertising agencies & manufacturers are out to make a buck or two, but they are just part of the system we have created, most of us have & continue to profit from that system so it would be ingenuous of us to condemn a company who's only crime is to try & make money & so indirectly, help enrich the country. Capitalism is the modus operandi of most western democracies where apart from starting wars, economical growth is their major concern & thanks to our ultra liberalism, pretty much anything goes to achieve it. Admittedly, things have gone too far for some but few do anything to try & change the frenzy of corporate gain nor offer any realistic alternatives. The status quo is much more comfortable than revolution;

As for the Stetson advert, I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt in that everyone involved in the ad was unaware of the sacrilege & didn't intend to harm anyone's sensibilities. After all, it would be bad for buisness

 

[LizzieMaine]

Admittedly, things have gone too far for some but few do anything to try & change the frenzy of corporate gain nor offer any realistic alternatives. The status quo is much more comfortable than revolution;

Speak for yourself -- some of us have been spitting in the status quo's eye for a very long time. Not because we expect to change the world tomorrow, but because every revolution starts with somebody getting fed up.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Every revolution starts with an idea & as Einstein put it " we can't solve problems by the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. "

 

[Big J]

I'll try....................... can you seperate mammon from the flag ? it would be very hypocritical to deny that a major factor of America's greatness is the dollar & it's place as the world's major currency, America wouldn't be what it is today without it's opulent wealth & excesses & the American flag symbolises capitalism at it's greatest.

I'm still not really sure what your point is.
Are you anti-American?
Are you anti-business?

Your initial post seemed to indicate that you might be anti-personal responsibility.

As for your comment I've quoted above, you do know how much debt the US has, and who bought that debt, don't you?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Heading down a dangerous road here, folks. Being anti-American and being critical of capitalism are not the same thing.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

I'm still not really sure what your point is.
Are you anti-American?
Are you anti-business?

Neither, I don't see why you should think someone is anti anything just because they are a realist.

Your initial post seemed to indicate that you might be anti-personal responsibility.

Again I don't know what gave you that idea nor why it should worry you but let me reassure you that I take full responsibily for both my own actions & those of my country which are carried out in my name.

As for your comment I've quoted above, you do know how much debt the US has, and who bought that debt, don't you?

Nope to both your questions but I'm sure Wikipedia has the answers.

 

[Big J]

Heading down a dangerous road here, folks. Being anti-American and being critical of capitalism are not the same thing.

I'm just trying to understand what his point is Lizzie. So far he just keeps telling me what he's not [huh]

 

[Lean'n'mean]

I'm just trying to understand what his point is Lizzie. So far he just keeps telling me what he's not [huh]

What does it matter ? those that can understand will & those that can't shouldn't be offended........or maybe I just can't be pigeon holed.

 

[T Jones]

I love capitalism. I love rich people too. Most of all, I love filthy lucre. Anybody who wants to get rid of their dirty capitalist money, let me know. I'll be glad to help out with that...

Originally Posted by Big J
you do know how much debt the US has, and who bought that debt, don't you?

to those who don't know...

The National Debt Clock....better than $18 trillion, and counting.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

 

[Big J]

What does it matter ? those that can understand will & those that can't shouldn't be offended........or maybe I just can't be pigeon holed.

Signal to noise ratio dude :bored: