Newbie: Lucky or Sucker, you decide...

[johnnyphi]

Hello all... I've been enjoying your site for a couple weeks, and it had been hugely helpful to me. Without going too far into the details, I recently stumbled onto a large collection of new/vintage/deadstock men's fur-felt hats in a local men's store that was going out of business after 85 years.

After getting to know the owner of the store, he agreed to show me his storage rooms, where I soon found dozens of Lee, Adam and Stetson hat boxes, each full of untouched, unworn fur-felt hats of various styles and sizes. I decided that this collection was an opportunity, and I decided to buy the entire inventory. I made an offer and the owner accepted.

Now, I am the proud owner of this amazing collection of hats, not to mention rack upon rack of vintage clothing, dating all the way back to WWII. All unworn, with the original tags.

This week, I plan to move the collection to a warehouse where I can begin the inventory process.

Needless to say, I have numerous questions for your excellent forum, but I'll start with these questions about the fur felt hats.

1) Many of the oldest hat boxes have deteriorated over the years (bottoms are falling out, etc.), and I want to make sure the hats are protected during transportation. What is the best method for transporting the hats without accidentally "bashing" them? Should I purchase special hat boxes for them, or will a they survive with tissue paper and gentle transportation?

2) Does anyone have more information on the Adam and Lee brands? How do they compare to Stetson and other higher-end brands?

3) What is the safest and cheapest way to store the hats without exposing them to moths and premature bashing?

4) The interior plastic lining of the crowns has deteriorated in some of the older hats, and it has become a flaky orange substance. The silk lining remains in great condition. Is this normal?

Finally, be honest... Do you think this is a lucky find, or do you think I'm a sucker?

Thank you for any guidance you can offer!

- John in DC

 

[carter]

Probably not a sucker...

Welcome to the Lounge, Johnnyphi.

You, sir, are going to receive a lot of attention from some very knowledgable folks here on the Lounge.

It appears on the initial post that you may have made a terrific discovery and an excellent buy.

The following is my best advice but you'll receive more from far more knowledgable members of the Lounge. Some of them are in your part ofthe nation.

As far as the hats are concerned, deterioration of the plastic in the crowns is not uncommon. Try to clean the hats with a hat brush to remove any dust, dirt, insect residue, etc. Once they are reasonably clean, each hat should be placed in a clear plastic bag before they are boxed. Each box should hold one hat if possible and have a separate top that can be placed on the box. Depending on the storage facility and the length of time the hats will be stored, you may want to seal tghe boxes with tape. However, do not tape vintage hat boxes as they have a certain value in and of themselves.

Adam and Lee Fedoras are very desirable to collectors of Vintage Fedoras. Not only the brand but the style of each fedora is important as well as anything printed or stamped on the sweatband and the lining of each hat. The more information you have, the better.

This thread:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=6981

A well as this post from John in Covina

Version 4: Men’s Dress Hats, Questions for the Buyer & Seller!

There are a variety of styles of hats that fall under the category of Men’s Dress hats. The most famous is the FEDORA, which has wide latitudes and parameters for dimensions yet still falls under the general description. Your best bet is to do some research visiting online stores to get a good description and look at pictures to match up the type actual of hat you’re selling. Still, “Fedora” is a much misused term with sellers calling all sorts of men’s hats, a ‘fedora’ that are not. HOMBURGS are also in the mix and are similar to a fedora but the especially the brim and sometimes the crown are shaped differently. BOWLERS, DERBIES, TOP HATS, PORK PIES, ALPINE and STINGY BRIMS are the usual suspects that round out those normally found in men’s dress hats.

First off, the best of these hats are made of fur felt, either: beaver, rabbit or nutria and sometimes a blend. Occasionally, you may find an exotic fur used in the felt. If you are positive of the content, please list it, exotic fur felt can be quite desirable. Also, there are some well made hats that contain synthetic materials that were blended with real fur to make the felt. The dress hat has a relative in Western hats, both using fur felt bodies to make the hat. Western hats often have different beaver contents are noted as X’s, with the idea that more X’s are better felts. Although wool felt hats can be well made and serviceable, fur felt is generally noted as a better quality offering a longer life.

The quality of the felt may allow for cleaning and re-blocking plus re-sizing sometimes, but these are moderate to expensive restorations when done by professionals. The cleaning and restoration of hats were once available in most towns and cities. Now there are only a small number of hatters and specialty shops prepared to do this work. Most amateurs should first consider many repairs in the realm of pros only, unless they have a number of hats to practice on to get the experience. Some defects are not repairable or extremely difficult to do such as holes or divots in the felt. Holes can come from too much improper handling and the dreaded “moth bites.” Moth larva may munch on the felt creating small holes and/or divot like tracks along the surface of the felt. Moth balls or flakes or even cedar blocks should be utilized in the storage area to keep these destructive pests away from your quality hats. Any holes or divots need to be described and shown in photos if possible. Dirt, dust, stains, smudges, or damages to the surface again must be described and shown in photos. Dust and dirt may be cleaned by a knowledgeable person, but should not be done by the untrained as the felt can be quickly and irreversibly damaged. Spots and stains are not always removable and again should be noted and photographed.

Smells or odors should be noted, most can be removed by cleaning, although just a good an airing out may work. Failing that the hat may be placed in a big plastic bag with a box of baking soda like the refrigerator odor removal type for about a week. Don’t get that baking soda on the hat though!

Always try to show pictures of the details of the imprints on the sweatband and the liner. Careful checking under the sweatband may reveal tags with codes that are of interest to the collector. The style of crests and such can often be used to find the era of manufacture. Occasionally an actual date may be revealed and that is good detective work to the delight of the collector. Be sure to include all of the liner, sweatband imprints and tag information in your written description! Be as accurate and complete in your description as you can. If you can do “macro” or close up pictures of these details that clearly show them all the better, it will help sell the hat.

Take clear and focused pictures from every conceivable angle: outside: top, bottom, front back and both sides. Inside: close-ups of any imprints and details. The box, if you have a box, can be a generic hat box or a box that is specific to your hat or in can be totally unrelated. Still, describe fully and accurately and photograph, list the box information and photos at the end of the ad. Try to describe the colors of the hat and the box, as color pictures doesn’t always render correctly on the computer monitor. Fuzzy pictures are a detriment and a headache, and buyers often feel it is a ploy to try to hide defects. Also do not clutter the picture with other items or try to be artsy. Try using a plain background such as a solid light colored blanket, table cloth or sheet. Sometimes you can prop up a hat to effectively show the curl of the brim. Try to refrain from cutesy posing like using the dog or your toddler with the hat, it distracts and detracts from the hat. By concentrating on the hat in your description and photos, you do the buyer a big favor.

Measurements and dimensions are critical to the style and size of a man’s hat so be prepared to measure! Inches with fractions works best but metric can be worked out for most buyers. Describe the Crown & give height front and rear. Describe the width of the ribbon and show the bow in your pictures. Describe the brim, as to the WIDTH. Does it curve up or down or both? Please measure width from the base of the crown, at or near where the bottom of the ribbon or band is, and out to the edge. Also note, some hats are wider at the front and the rear than the sides, you may wish to measure all of these sections to be sure.

Good pictures of the ribbon and the bow are essential too! Also the edge of the brim maybe worked in a variety of ways such as raw, bound, stitched, folded and pressed all of which are of interest to the collector or user. Sometimes you may find a button with a string or cord attached to the hat. This is referred to as a Wind Trolley, and by other names. It attached the hat to the man to keep it from being blown away and lost.

Even if you find a size tag, note that old and unworn hats tend to shrink, so you should double check and list the ACTUAL SIZE of a hat! Please, measure the CIRCUMFRENCE of the hat, INSIDE, all the way AROUND the SWEAT BAND in inches to nearest fraction of an inch. If you do not have a cloth tape measure, then use a piece of string. Or make a paper tape and read the measured string or paper tape against tape measure or yard stick. Here is a conversion chart for converting Inches to US sizes:

INCHES US Size Metric
21” = size 6-5/8 = 53 cm
21-1/2” = size 6-3/4 = 54 cm
21-3/4” = size 6-7/8 = 55 cm
22” = size 7 = 56 cm
22-1/2” = size 7-1/8 = 57 cm
22-3/4” = size 7-1/4 = 58 cm
23” = size 7-3/8 = 59 cm
23-1/2” = size 7-1/2 = 60 cm
24” = size 7-5/8 = 61 cm
24-3/8” = size 7-3/4 = 62 cm
24-7/8” = size 7-7/8 = 63 cm
25-1/8” = size 8 = 63 cm

Also the size tag may mention a shape type like LONG OVAL which is a specific shape to match a head shape. This is key information to be listed!

A good, complete, and accurate description, noting all the details, along with clear pictures will bring you a better chance for a good sale.

In the ITEM TITLE you should consider first listing the following:
STYLE, MAKER, MODEL, COLOR, SIZE and then some sales pitch.
These first five items will help more to sell the hat by allowing the collector find your treasure quickly and easily using the search button.

Example: Fedora Stetson Playboy Grey 7-7/8 Film Noir very clean!

Again, the more details in your write up you can accurately list the better the chance to sell. The more honestly and accurately you describe the hat including faults, the more likely you will NOT have an angry customer looking to return the hat as misrepresented in the listings. Collectors may be looking for certain specific details which are always good to publish in the Question and Answer area to help all the buyers. It is not privileged information, you as the seller, should use all information at your disposal to help collectors find and select your hat.

If you don’t know the actual age of the hat, don’t guess, unless you care to expound on why you think it is of a certain age. Many hats made in the 60’s and later are listed erroneously as much earlier manufacture, style does not always indicate age.

Damaged hats may be restorable, our hatters can do some remarkable and rather astonishing restorations but they are labors of love, time consuming and of great expense. That said, rare and desirable models may suggest a complete rebuild to revive a notable hat. Even a damaged or dirty hat can be worth listing.

Happy selling and good luck with your hat auction.
__________________
John in Covina - Southern California

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Last edited by John in Covina : 12-15-2007 at 10:18 AM.

Should prove to be very helpful.

I can't wait to see what you have acquired. I may have to make a trip home to VA soon.

 

[surely]

You will, I predict, be the most popular new member ever, with pleas to buy, maybe even to help with the inventory. Sounds like a fantastic find. Remindes me of the time I was alone in the storage room containing Spike Jones' instruments; if only I had money then.

 

[Jovan]

What do you have in 7 1/2?

 

[Dixon Cannon]

johnnyphi....

You are one lucky sucker!

Keep us all posted on this museum collection, will you?!

-dixon cannon

 

[M Tatterscratch]

Finally, be honest... Do you think this is a lucky find, or do you think I'm a sucker?

Thank you for any guidance you can offer!

- John in DC

Crikey!

Hello, Johnnyphi! From what little I know, you're solidly in Category A here.

It sounds like Carter and John in Covina have things well in hand, but I do have one thing to add: I strongly suggest you get rid of all the 7 1/8 hats immediately! Vintage 7 1/8 hats were known to have been affected by the Body Snatcher invasion of 1956, and haven't been safe to have around since.

If you like, I'll take the pesky things off you hands (and maybe even off your very head) and cart the little darlings out to Area 51 where they belong.

Same goes for anything in a 36 Regular. Deadly as they come, those 36es.

In all seriousness, welcome, Sir, with or without your magical Aladdin's Cave of Vintage. Do let us know how it goes.

Regards,

Mr. Tatterscratch

 

[RBH]

Welcome to the Lounge Lucky John.

 

[Damon Falzone]

Amazing! This was the dream I had the other night.

 

[The Wingnut]

Crikey!

I strongly suggest you get rid of all the 7 1/8 hats immediately! Vintage 7 1/8 hats were known to have been affected by the Body Snatcher invasion of 1956, and haven't been safe to have around since.
...
Same goes for anything in a 36 Regular. Deadly as they come, those 36es.

...yes, quite. But, by all means, do NOT send them outside the country. This only exacerbates the phenomenon. The safest place for them is in California.

...that being said, I'll gladly keep them safe from the rest of the population.

Congrats! We've all dreamed about this from time to time, I'm sure.

 

[Feraud]

You have a big job ahead of you but lucky.
I am sure everyone will be watching the classified section in '08.

 

[luvthatlulu]

Gawd!


Pssst. I'm in for any 7 1/2s my own self!

 

[J.B.]

...I recently stumbled onto a large collection of new/vintage/deadstock men's fur-felt hats in a local men's store that was going out of business after 85 years.

...dozens of Lee, Adam and Stetson hat boxes, each full of untouched, unworn fur-felt hats of various styles and sizes...I decided to buy the entire inventory. I made an offer and the owner accepted...

Gah! I hate you.

 

[flylot74]

What is the safest and cheapest way to store the hats without exposing them to moths and premature bashing?

Let the FL members wear the hats!

Finally, be honest... Do you think this is a lucky find, or do you think I'm a sucker?

You are both! You are ONE LUCKY SUCKER!!!!!!!!

..... Huh! I'm the kind of guy that would buy a white Panama suit with two pairs of trousers and then burn a hole in the jacket! :eusa_doh:

 

[luvthatlulu]

J. B. ...please.

Gah! I hate you.

Let's choose our words more carefully and welcome with open arms our new bestest friend!

BTW...what size do you need?

 

[luvthatlulu]

You have a big job ahead of you but lucky.
I am sure everyone will be watching the classified section in '08.

And you, johnnnyphi, should be watching your FL Private Messages folder carefully, too. Ignore everything that isn't from me!

 

[J.B.]

Let's choose our words more carefully and welcome with open arms our new bestest friend!

BTW...what size do you need?

hm. Okay, johnnyphi. I've decided to give our friendship another chance. I'm going to condescend to accept as a gift all of the 7 3/8 Lee's that you have...

hmpf. Who am I kidding?! I don't even like me. All right, then. I'll beg. I'll genuflect. I'll curtsy, bow, cry, beg, and throw a conniption fit. Not impressed? Why -- I'm gonna grovel around on the floor like a ruptured chihuahua!

Mm-hm. That should work!

 

[luvthatlulu]

hm. Okay, johnnyphi. I've decided to give our friendship another chance. I'm going to condescend to accept as a gift all of the 7 3/8 Lee's that you have...

hmpf. Who am I kidding?! I don't even like me. All right, then. I'll beg. I'll genuflect. I'll curtsy, bow, cry, beg, and throw a conniption fit. Not impressed? Why -- I'm gonna grovel around on the floor like a ruptured chihuahua!

Mm-hm. That should work!

Gawd!

 

[Johnnysan]

Hmmm...Christmas comes early??

Congratulations on hitting the Mother Lode and welcome to the Lounge!

 

[J.B.]

And you, johnnnyphi, should be watching your FL Private Messages folder carefully, too. Ignore everything that isn't from me!

nah. He can't get PM's yet. I myself am going to resort to a typical public maudlin display of sycophantic kissing-up!

God, I'm pathetic. :eusa_doh:

 

[Mojave Jack]

...yes, quite. But, by all means, do NOT send them outside the country. This only exacerbates the phenomenon. The safest place for them is in California.

...that being said, I'll gladly keep them safe from the rest of the population.

Congrats! We've all dreamed about this from time to time, I'm sure.

Absolutely right. California is the best place for them; in fact Southern California, to be more precise. Somewhere in, say, the Mojave. Happy to be of assistance, should the need arise!

But seriously, welcome to the Lounge! Looking forward to seeing some of the fruits of your exceptional good fortune!