New U.S. Air Force uniform protoypes

[Diamondback]

[voice=Darth Vader]Is there a problem?[/voice]

Seriously, other than Air Farce needing blue (Hey, I was raised by a retired USAF Master Sarge, I'm entitled!), I fail to see what's wrong with the khakis that were standard during the Big One...

 

[Martinis at 8]

... other than Air Farce...

Mac's your hero? What's with his Momma living at the Hotel Thayer?

 

[Diamondback]

Sir, this isn't the time for a Mac debate, but I've been meaning to PM a bartender and get their thoughts about proposed ground-rules for opening a thread for one. I've been tearing the man's mind apart for five years now, and think I've found something that most people would have never thought of at the core of what made him tick. But that's fftopic:

 

[Martinis at 8]

Sir, this isn't the time for a Mac debate, but I've been meaning to PM a bartender and get their thoughts about proposed ground-rules for opening a thread for one. I've been tearing the man's mind apart for five years now, and think I've found something that most people would have never thought of at the core of what made him tick. But that's fftopic:

I think a thread on Mac would be brilliant! Lots to discuss, including his mufti :fedora:

 

[Fletch]

The Air Force really should go with the Arnold uniform. Just narrow and maybe de-peak the lapels.

Sadly, it's probably too late for the Army. They want only 2 basic uniforms, and they're getting only 2. Dogfaces or bus drivers.

I hear the Navy wants to get down to, or close to, 2. That would be too bad. The Marines already think of themselves as the only service that respects tradition. All this uniform tossing is just going to reinforce that, and I don't think in a good way.

All the services threw out WW2 items because they were too widely used as surplus, or too associated with "wartime." Well, "wartime" means something a lot different now than khaki, OD and russet brown. It means the ute/camo/BD uniforms servicemembers now wear pretty much all the time, including on stateside duty, which gives them the look of an occupying force. They might do well to get back to a look that's associated across generation and party lines with the proud citizen soldier.

 

[Martinis at 8]

The Air Force really should go with the Arnold uniform. Just narrow and maybe de-peak the lapels.

Sadly, it's probably too late for the Army. They want only 2 basic uniforms, and they're getting only 2. Dogfaces or bus drivers.

I hear the Navy wants to get down to, or close to, 2. That would be too bad. The Marines already think of themselves as the only service that respects tradition. All this uniform tossing is just going to reinforce that, and I don't think in a good way.

All the services threw out WW2 items because they were too widely used as surplus, or too associated with "wartime." Well, "wartime" means something a lot different now than khaki, OD and russet brown. It means the ute/camo/BD uniforms servicemembers now wear pretty much all the time, including on stateside duty, which gives them the look of an occupying force. They might do well to get back to a look that's associated across generation and party lines with the proud citizen soldier.

I will only opine on the Army. They will select whatever wardrobe lets them camouflage their expanding waist lines. Particularly for the 0-4 and above ranks. I say bring back the Ike jackets and put those who can't wear it on 90 days notice. Shape up or ship out!

M8

 

[Mojave Jack]

Well it certainly seems as though there is some conflicting info about some of the Marine Corps uniform signifigance. I checked out the afore mentioned link and did a yahoo search and found almost identical wording on a couple of other sites as if it were just cut and pasted from one site to the other.

This is from the Marine Corps Univerty's site

HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF MARINE CORPS UNIFORM ITEMS:

a. Marine Corps Emblem: The emblem consists of an eagle clenching the Marine Corps motto in its beak, the globe (Western Hemisphere), and the anchor. The emblem was adopted by Brigadier Jacob Zeilin in 1868 to depict the Marines as both American and maritime.

(1) The globe and anchor signify the worldwide service and sea traditions.

(2) The spread eagle represents the nation itself.

(3) The motto, "Semper Fidelis" is Latin for "Always Faithful."

b. Scarlet Trouser Stripe: Officers and noncommissioned officers have intermittently worn scarlet stripes on dress trousers ever since the early days of the Marine Corps. The initial uniform trouser issued after the reconstitution of the Marine Corps, in 1798, had scarlet piping. However, the scarlet stripes have come to commemorate the high casualty rate amongst Marine NCO's and officers during the battle for Chapultepec.

c. Quatrefoil: The quatrefoil (cross-shaped braid atop officers frame-type "barracks" covers) has been worn ever since 1859. The design, of French origin, is a distinguishing part of the Marine Officer's uniform. Popular belief tells us that in the mid 1800s, crossed pieces of rope were sewn to the top of officer's covers so that sharpshooters in the ship's riggings could readily identify them.

d. Officer's Sword: (Mameluke Sword). The sword carried by officers of the Marine Corps has a history that is nearly as old as the Marine Corps itself. Its design is unique in the American services. Today, it stands as the single weapon of the longest use in American arms. Officially prescribed 1862, this sword has a distinctive Mameluke hilt that was first introduced by Marine officers stationed aboard ships of the Mediterranean Squadron during the Barbary Wars, 1801- 1807. The sword of the Mamelukes had a curved scimitar blade and a uniquely shaped handle that is now especially identified with the U. S. Marines.

e. NCO Sword: Noncommissioned officers of the Marine Corps are the only NCO's in any branch of the regular United States Armed Forces who still have the privilege of carrying swords, which is basically a commissioned officer's weapon. The sword is the personification of military traditions and leadership and has been entrusted to those most responsible for maintaining it. The Marine NCO sword is the oldest U. S. weapon in continuous use. Although the Mameluke Sword has been around longer, there was a short period at the beginning of the Civil War when the Mameluke Sword was replaced with the forerunner of our current NCO sword. While its use is now limited by regulation to ceremonial occasions, the sword still represents "esprit de corps" and "leadership."

http://www.cpp.usmc.mil/schools/corporals/SH/0107.htm

I know things like the origin of the Mameluke Sword are true , though we were taught in boot camp that it was specifically given to Lt. Presley O'Bannon during the Barbary Pirates War. The fact is, though, that the Mameluke sword was very popular among many Western countries, including England and France. It's just as likely that the Marine Corps did not want to appear provincial and adopted the latest rage in swords at a time when the American Navy and Marine Corps were struggling to distinguish themselves.

But some of the things like the scarlet stripe on the NCOs pants seems like adapting significance to something that just looked sharp on the uniform. Same thing for the quatrefoil on the officers' covers. Keep in mind that my drill instructors also told us that the seven belt loops on our trousers were for each the seven seas, which encompassed the Marine Corps sea service. Uh, seven belt loops for the seven seas? Seriously?! OK, sure. Maybe a little weak... lol Then again, maybe it's just a way to get boots to subconciously count their belt loops when they put on their belts so they don't miss one and look like a goof (and to recognize offier's by the quatrefoil on their covers and NCOs by their blood stripes, etc.). Who knows... [huh]

I will agree, though, that however these traditions came about, it is not their accuracy that is important, but the sense of community, loyalty, and identity that they instill. It was my experience in the Marine Corps that tought me a particularly strong sense of identity as a Marine, and I think that stems in great part from our sense of our history. You never hear, "once a soldier, always a soldier," though you frequently hear, "Once a Marine, always a Marine."

It's been my subsequent experience in the Air Force, however, that they want to distance themselves from the past in order to cultivate an atmosphere of being a modern service that is on the cutting edge of technology. The wierd Klingon version of the Hap Arnold star that was recently adopted has been very well received among the video game playing, ultra-modern young airmen. They don't want the old Hap Arnold star back, nor do they want the Billy Mitchell dress uniform for the same reasons.

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

b. Scarlet Trouser Stripe: Officers and noncommissioned officers have intermittently worn scarlet stripes on dress trousers ever since the early days of the Marine Corps. The initial uniform trouser issued after the reconstitution of the Marine Corps, in 1798, had scarlet piping. However, the scarlet stripes have come to commemorate the high casualty rate amongst Marine NCO's and officers during the battle for Chapultepec.

That seems strange. The US Army at the time of the Mexican/Civil Wars also used piping on uniform trousers. US Army artillery trousers also had a red stripe.

c. Quatrefoil: The quatrefoil (cross-shaped braid atop officers frame-type "barracks" covers) has been worn ever since 1859. The design, of French origin, is a distinguishing part of the Marine Officer's uniform. Popular belief tells us that in the mid 1800s, crossed pieces of rope were sewn to the top of officer's covers so that sharpshooters in the ship's riggings could readily identify them.

This also seems strange, considering that the US army used the same thing and it wasn't because it could be seen from ships rigging. The braid was used as a rank distinguishing device, but you would have to be very close to the person in order to tell what rank it distinguished.

 

[Mojave Jack]

Vladimir, I think those are both examples of the same phenomenon; they've developed a significance for what was essentially military fashion, like the Mameluke sword. It could be simply a case of sea stories becoming reified over time and being passed down as "facts," or the stories are invented to act as mnemonic devices to help new recruits remember the various symbols and devices.

 

[TraderRic]

My two cets

My experiece as an NCO in the army and an officer in the navy has been that service people want consistancy. If the uniform is constantly changing it is difficult to keep up with the current regs (like whether or not a wheel cap is authorized). The navy is going through some uniforms shifts as well. The new enlisted year round uniform of khaki shirt and blue(black) trousers/skirt will be on the street soon. I'm affraid that the color khaki will loose its significance now that sailors will get a khaki shirt in boot camp. It was a sigificant event for a newly promoted chief to put on the khaki uiform for the first time.

I do agree that the air force needs to change to something new. A fried of mine was an LTC in the air force when they switched to the JC Penny suit. He hated it, especially the stripes on the sleeves! I like the choker look. My choker whites don't bother me, but that's because it was custome tailored. I remember the assembly line uniform issue in army basic training and chokers can't be "close enough".

I wonder if the sam browne with the shoulder strap will ever come back? I think that looks sharp. I'm glad the marine officers have retained it.

 

[Harry Pierpont]

My youngest son leaves for BMT at Lackland AFB in August, graduating in October. We'll see what dress uniform he comes out with!

 

[plain old dave]

Random thoughts....

1) Being an E4 in the US Navy (Reserve Component), my pet peeve is so many of our uniforms require dry cleaning. Dress Whites should be canvas instead of polyester, and "WestPac creases" (sewn in) should be in all working dress uniforms. IMHO the "urban camo" (sic) utilities are almost as ill-thought out as the new khaki shirt and balck trousers for all hands.

2) As to these uniforms, the male uniform with the standing collar looks decent and the female one with tie is more, well, feminine.

Combine the male uniform with high boots and riding breeches (i.e. WW1 era USAAC) and they MIGHT have something.

 

[Fletch]

They're never going to do that. Breeches have lost their "weak" meanings and only kept the "strong" ones - basically, fascism and fetishism.