Nazi Plane Tailfin

[Stearmen]

Based on the flat head rivets, the type of aluminum and the stringer still attached on the back side, I would say that it is definitely from an aircraft. The smaller holes evenly spaced apart at the bottom would have attached an additional sheet of aluminum, thus completing the swastika. As for the brush marks on the paint, it is very possible that the markings could have been hand painted on. It was not uncommon to do that during the war. Especially if you were in a remote area and didn’t have a spray gun available. As for the “bullet” holes, they do look a bit square, but we are only guessing they are supposed to be bullet holes. They could very well be from a pick ax that may have been used to dismantle the plane. Let’s not automatically assume that just because it doesn’t match “the norm” that it is a fake.

I think more about Pilot Error’s uncle’s service locations and exactly what his job was in the war could tell us more about the piece.

The pick ax is a good theory! I know, when Watson's "Whizzers" were trying to find as many German jets as they could get their hands on, they had a lot of trouble with GIs who wanted to make sure no NAZI plane would ever darken the sky again!

 

[Edward]

Ok, he says he's not trying to sell it. I'm not even sure its legal to sell Nazi memorabilia in the States anymore.

Maybe its illegal in Germany, I don’t remember. Maybe I’m thinking of ebay. I don’t think they allow it on ebay. J

It's a Firzt Amendment right to sell pretty much any Nazi stuff (up to and including the ideology, Holocaust denial and such) in the US, just so long as you don't incite violence. Re eBay, folks may be thinking of LICRA v Yahoo (2000). A French court demanded that Yahoo Auctions prevent ads for pro-Nazi materials that were hosted on Yahoo Inc's US based servers and which contravened French laws from being accessible in France. US courts said First Amendment, no dice. Yahoo chose of their own accord to avoid looking "pro-Nazi". eBay followed suit.

Germany also has strict laws, but they prevent the sale of anything encouraging Nazi ideology, especially Holocaust denial, not historical relics.

 

[Luftwaffe-Jacket-Wanted]

Any plane build the same way like this " invention" is made/build would rip appart after getting faster than 60 knots...
Think about the vibrations the G forces etc.. ant this on all planes structures.
Impossible real thing. Sorry no offence, but a real faked " post war" make up...

 

[Otter]

I could see someone taking a piece of aircraft skin and faking it, but I honestly cannot imagine them taking the time to flush rivet and fit the reinforcing stringers to it. The markings on the pannel are consistent with WWII manufacturer aircraft skin.

 

[pawineguy]

Any plane build the same way like this " invention" is made/build would rip appart after getting faster than 60 knots...
Think about the vibrations the G forces etc.. ant this on all planes structures.
Impossible real thing. Sorry no offence, but a real faked " post war" make up...

Obviously you have a strong opinion on this, but you are not showing any evidence of what it SHOULD look like. Everything is consistent with an airplane skin, and while the swastika may have been faked, what else to you is inconsistent with an aluminum airplane skin?

 

[Otter]

Looking back at the first photo, that flush riviting is a professional job. I tried my hand at it when I was at Flights of Fantasy, and it requires a high degree of skill to get them that even and flush.

 

[Giftmacher]

I have never seen that ENZ marking, in shape looks like BA or BAL, which is common on luftwaffe parts.

 

[Treetopflyer]

I have never seen that ENZ marking, in shape looks like BA or BAL, which is common on luftwaffe parts.

roadierfl posted on page 2 of this post "3116.5 means it is an aluminium alloy (Al-Cu-Mg) produced in sheets up to 3mm thickness - for the aircraft industry.
ENZ is the code of the producer - Enzesfelder Metallwerk A.G., Werk Enzesfeld/N.D" along with a picture of a piece of aircraft wreckage. She does point out that the octagon border around ENZ is odd. Again just because it is different does not mean that it is not correct. The manufacturer could have easily changed their trade mark insignia. Also, why does everyone say the swastika is not correct? Yes it's applied by brush, but that does not make it "not correct." I think people are too quick to assume it is a fake.

 

[pawineguy]

roadierfl posted on page 2 of this post "3116.5 means it is an aluminium alloy (Al-Cu-Mg) produced in sheets up to 3mm thickness - for the aircraft industry.
ENZ is the code of the producer - Enzesfelder Metallwerk A.G., Werk Enzesfeld/N.D" along with a picture of a piece of aircraft wreckage. She does point out that the octagon border around ENZ is odd. Again just because it is different does not mean that it is not correct. The manufacturer could have easily changed their trade mark insignia. Also, why does everyone say the swastika is not correct? Yes it's applied by brush, but that does not make it "not correct." I think people are too quick to assume it is a fake.

Not only they did establish what the 3116.5 meant, but it's clear that it was used on a variety of German aircraft. You can also find the mark on a variety of German WW2 aircraft parts through a simple Google search. To me, it's more a question of looking at the the part itself and determining where on the plane it might have fit, if not the tail fin. It's an interesting search, and I'm not convinced it's authentic, but so far there is no smoking gun either way.

 

[Giftmacher]

There's too much of LW markings on metal parts, I know that because I have lot of LW junk from local former German airport. Therefore I wouldn't dare condemn it as fake just because of markings. If someone is interested in german aircrafts from WWII. here's a gallery of my finds
http://www.ottogiftmacher.wz.cz/album/index.htm (mostly He 111, Ju 188 and Si 204D)

 

[pilot error]

eBay souvenir photos......

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[Stearmen]

It's a Firzt Amendment right to sell pretty much any Nazi stuff (up to and including the ideology, Holocaust denial and such) in the US, just so long as you don't incite violence. Re eBay, folks may be thinking of LICRA v Yahoo (2000). A French court demanded that Yahoo Auctions prevent ads for pro-Nazi materials that were hosted on Yahoo Inc's US based servers and which contravened French laws from being accessible in France. US courts said First Amendment, no dice. Yahoo chose of their own accord to avoid looking "pro-Nazi". eBay followed suit.

Germany also has strict laws, but they prevent the sale of anything encouraging Nazi ideology, especially Holocaust denial, not historical relics.

I did a quick search on ebay, and got over 2,000 auctions on NAZI Swastika alone. Maybe that's ebay France only.

 

[Stearmen]

Here is the inner aluminum skin and markings on a Messerschmitt BF109G.

 

[pawineguy]

Here is the inner aluminum skin and markings on a Messerschmitt BF109G.

Great pictures... looking more and more like this is part of a plane, especially with the provenance. Whether the swastika was painted after the fact is probably something that will never be discoverable.

 

[Edward]

I did a quick search on ebay, and got over 2,000 auctions on NAZI Swastika alone. Maybe that's ebay France only.

It's eBay generally. The stuff they don't allow is specifically pro-Nazi, not items which happen to pertain to Nazi history. Historical antiques are regarded as legit, as long as the ad is not along the lines of "Souvenir of the Glorious Third Reich, if only they had won..." and such. Of course, for legal reasons eBay don't actively edit auctions, but they do act in response to complaints.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

It's eBay generally. The stuff they don't allow is specifically pro-Nazi, not items which happen to pertain to Nazi history. Historical antiques are regarded as legit, as long as the ad is not along the lines of "Souvenir of the Glorious Third Reich, if only they had won..." and such. Of course, for legal reasons eBay don't actively edit auctions, but they do act in response to complaints.

Which is quite capricious because I've learned that all it takes is one person to ruin your day. Nine out of ten may not have a problem with something but the one who does seems to carry more weight than the other nine.

 

[pilot error]

Here's another marking I overlooked... K35 On the stringer.

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[Treetopflyer]

Based on all the evidence I have seen, I am of the opinion that it is genuine. The only question that remains is what type of aircraft did it come from?

 

[scorpion89]

Here's another marking I overlooked... K35 On the stringer.

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The K35 stamp was used by the Luftwaffan for final inspection on rivit parts, as for the skin, not only is this real but I think it either came off a late war rebuild J87 or 109G. How do I come to this conclussion, well if you look at how the back of the skin has started to wear you will notice a tint of light blue in the skin only the Germans had this type of aluminum, each country has an unique color that shows as the skin fades (US is a Olive Green). Now for the stamps these are from late 1944 I found these style of stamps on wreck that I have been involved with. If I was guessing I would say this plane came from the Eastern Front. Don't forget when the Russian were heading into Germany 99% of the pilots tried to escape back to the Western Sides to surrender. Stuff in the Eastern Front tended to be more crued when it came to markings. As for the bullit holes they're not they are pickaxe holes most likely done by the field that the plane surrender at. This was a stander practices basically make it so the plane couldn't fly just in case someone want to take it up for a joy ride.

 

[pilot error]

I appreciate everyones input, and I know it's subjective but no one has addressed my original question when I started this thread. Assuming it's genuine, what's it worth?