Nazi deserters have reputations restored at last

[The Lonely Navigator]

Edward: History has always been written by the victor, and, alas, in WW2 just as any conflict the dark side of the victors has been as covered up as anything. A lot of folks won't tolerate the truth coming out, either - look at the reaction you get, for example, when you raise the truth of what an unpleasant person Churchill actually was.

I agree with Edward. I had read about U-Boat warfare in WWI and was surprised even more so after watching a documentary done by the BBC on the Lusitania, and reading Colin Simpson's "Lusitania", to find out just what type of person Churchill really was.

 

[Edward]

On the subject of Churchill, I recently watched The Gathering Storm - primarily because the old boy was played by Brendan Gleeson, of whom I have been a big fan since his turn as Michael Collins in The Treaty (surely the most perfectly produced, historically accurate film I have ever seen). It did pull a lot of punches, but it avoided going down the hero-worship route, which was interesting to see.

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

That's good to know Edward.

 

[Edward]

Hmmnn.... ruminating further on the title of the article....

I know we've been through this before, but i wonder how fair it is to label these soldiers Nazi deserters. It is a matter of historical fact that every one of them took an oath of loyalty to Hitler, though that was in the context of him being the head of state rather than a declaration equivalent to political allegiance (not least bearing in mind the structure of the state and the use of conscription).

 

[The Lonely Navigator]

Good point Edward.

I guess a more accurate term would be "Deserters of the Wehrmacht" (or - if it is strictly relating to the German Army - "Deserters of the German Army/Heer").

And that was true about the oath to Hitler - as he was the head of state and doesn't in the least mean a 'political agreement'.

In my reading on U-Boat crews here are some incidents to consider:

From the book: "Wolfpack - The Story of the U-Boat in World War II" by Gordon Williamson.

On Werner Henke, commander of U 124:

"He stormed into the headquarters of the local Gauleiter, and then the Gestapo headquarters itself, branding them as thugs and gangsters. Despite an earlier incident when he struck an SS officer, Henke received no more than a stern rebuke from Donitz. It is hard to imagine any ordinary German citizen being quite so fortunate."

"U-Boat commanders, though proud and patriotic Germans, were quite notorious in their disrespect for the Nazi regime. On one famous occasion, U-Boat ace Teddy Suhren of U 564 was approaching port to tie up alongside after a long war cruise when he leaned over the edge of the conning tower and yelled 'Are the Nazis still in charge?' When the reply 'Yes' came back, Suhren immediately put his engines into reverse and backed away from the quayside, much to the amusement of those watching."

 

[Story]

Somewhat related -

actions to preserve German military records from war

By Associated Press

7:50 AM EST, November 16, 2009
CLEVELAND (AP) — Germany is bestowing a high civilian honor on an Ohio man for his efforts more than 60 years ago to save German World War II military records.

Ninety-one-year-old Henry Sternweiler, of the Cleveland suburb of Fairview Park, is to be awarded Germany's Cross of the Order of Merit during a Dec. 7 ceremony at the German Consulate in Chicago.

In 1946, Sternweiler's U.S. military superiors ordered him to burn archives of the defeated German army. The young lieutenant thought the records were valuable but didn't want to disobey orders, so he notified a French officer assigned to the unit. The officer was appalled over the order to destroy the files and had it lifted.

The archives helped notify German families of army deaths and were used by war crimes investigators.

*
SINGAPORE, November 16 (RIA Novosti) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev spoke out strongly and repeatedly on Monday against attempts to rewrite the results of World War II and the Soviet Union's contribution to the victory over Nazi Germany.

In late September, Medvedev voiced a similar warning to the United Nations, urging the international organization to act firmly against the rise of neo-Nazism.

"If falsifiers who are attempting to rewrite history are given real power, we will find ourselves facing demands for compensation. This is simply dangerous to the state," Medvedev told sailors aboard the Varyag missile cruiser, making a port call in Singapore, which hosted the APEC summit at the weekend.

He said historians could debate some issues, but said there was no controversy about the outcome of World War II, which was backed up by international and government decisions.

"We should keep an eye on such things - not fighting different points of view, but protecting our interests and thwarting falsifications of history that could hamper the interests of the state," the Russian president said.

The war continues to be a contentious issue in Russia's relations with both Estonia and Latvia, over the Baltic States' perceived glorification of Nazi collaborators. Parades in honor of Waffen-SS veterans, involving veterans from the Latvian Legion and the 20th Estonian SS Division and their supporters, are held annually in the two Baltic States.

Another former Soviet republic, Ukraine, holds numerous events to honor the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), which fought against the Soviets during World War II.

 

[Dr Doran]

History has always been written by the victor,

With all due respect, I must pick at this assertion, for it is not at all true.

Fifth century BC: Herodotus, the first historian whose work has survived intact and who in fact coined the phrase "historia" to describe a chronological narration of important events (from greek "historie" meaning "inquiry" or "investigation") was from the town of Hallikarnassos (modern Bodrum, in Turkey). He wrote about the Greco-Persian Wars. The Greeks won these wars, but he was only half-Greek. The other half was Karian which was part of the Persian Empire. Moreover, he spent lots of time on the virtues of the Persians.

Later 5th century: Thucydides, the universally recognized founder of history-writing in the modern "just the facts, ma'am" sense, was an Athenian. He wrote about the Peloponnesian War, in which he was an eyewitness. The Athenians lost that war. Horribly. Any historian of any period of any country will list Thucydides as possibly the greatest historian who ever lived. No one will dissent from naming him in the top 3. Anywhere.

Late 5th and 4th Century BC: Xenophon, an Athenian who later lived in the Spartan territories, continued the story. The Athenians lost; he, an Athenian, describes it. Then, in 371, after he was made an honorary Spartan more or less, and his children were raised as adopted Spartiates, the Spartans lost the battle of Leuktra and faded from international glory forever. Xenophon described it. At this point as I say, Xenophon was more or less an honorary Spartan citizen. In between the Peloponnesian War and Leuktra, Xenophon joined the Army of the Ten Thousand campaigning for Cyrus against Cyrus' brother, the Persian King. Cyrus died. The Cyrus supporters, including Xenophon, cannot be said to have won that, as Cyrus' brother remained on the throne. And Xenophon wrote an entire book about that journey (the "Anabasis" or "Journey Up-Country").

Polybius in the mid-second century BC wrote about Rome's rise, which included taking over Megalopolis and the Achaean League and taking a hundred (I think) aristocratic young hostages to live at Rome. Polybius was one of them, a Megalopolitan. Megalopolis LOST. Polybius wrote that history.

These are all big shots, not obscure figures.

 

[Carlisle Blues]

I had some experience of Romania within 13 months of the revolution there, and all the dreadful conditions in the orphanages came out. The attitude of a very high number of regular folks there seemed to be "so? They're only gypsy kids, they don't matter" - and I'd be willing to bet that a very high proportion of folks here in the West wouldn't think much different were it on their doorstep instead of all that way away.

I think that depends on the living conditions of the people who were with the facts you present. It is one thing to learn of a situation happening aboard in the 1930's like the work camps and be in the United States. Especially with it's "isolationist" policy. It is another to have it sitting right in front you you in today's society...

 

[reetpleat]

With all due respect, I must pick at this assertion, for it is not at all true.

Fifth century BC: Herodotus, the first historian whose work has survived intact and who in fact coined the phrase "historia" to describe a chronological narration of important events (from greek "historie" meaning "inquiry" or "investigation") was from the town of Hallikarnassos (modern Bodrum, in Turkey). He wrote about the Greco-Persian Wars. The Greeks won these wars, but he was only half-Greek. The other half was Karian which was part of the Persian Empire. Moreover, he spent lots of time on the virtues of the Persians.

Later 5th century: Thucydides, the universally recognized founder of history-writing in the modern "just the facts, ma'am" sense, was an Athenian. He wrote about the Peloponnesian War, in which he was an eyewitness. The Athenians lost that war. Horribly. Any historian of any period of any country will list Thucydides as possibly the greatest historian who ever lived. No one will dissent from naming him in the top 3. Anywhere.

Late 5th and 4th Century BC: Xenophon, an Athenian who later lived in the Spartan territories, continued the story. The Athenians lost; he, an Athenian, describes it. Then, in 371, after he was made an honorary Spartan more or less, and his children were raised as adopted Spartiates, the Spartans lost the battle of Leuktra and faded from international glory forever. Xenophon described it. At this point as I say, Xenophon was more or less an honorary Spartan citizen. In between the Peloponnesian War and Leuktra, Xenophon joined the Army of the Ten Thousand campaigning for Cyrus against Cyrus' brother, the Persian King. Cyrus died. The Cyrus supporters, including Xenophon, cannot be said to have won that, as Cyrus' brother remained on the throne. And Xenophon wrote an entire book about that journey (the "Anabasis" or "Journey Up-Country").

Polybius in the mid-second century BC wrote about Rome's rise, which included taking over Megalopolis and the Achaean League and taking a hundred (I think) aristocratic young hostages to live at Rome. Polybius was one of them, a Megalopolitan. Megalopolis LOST. Polybius wrote that history.

These are all big shots, not obscure figures.

Interesting, but I think we can safely say that in modern times, history is written by the victors. (or, what comes to be the commonly accepted history, for obviously, any loser can write something, but will it be widely deseminated and distributed?) the power of propaganda is too well known now for any victor to allow the loser to gain much traction in sharing their version.

 

[Edward]

With all due respect, I must pick at this assertion, for it is not at all true....

These are all big shots, not obscure figures.

Interesting.... those certainly are exceptions to that 'rule'. I imagine too that over time the other side of a story will always come out, though so successful is the modern propaganda machine (certainly the 20th and into the 21st centuries) that there's probably a lot still to come out, but then on balance with the internet and modern media, it must be much harder to control than once it was. Hmmn.

I think that depends on the living conditions of the people who were with the facts you present. It is one thing to learn of a situation happening aboard in the 1930's like the work camps and be in the United States. Especially with it's "isolationist" policy. It is another to have it sitting right in front you you in today's society...

There is that. A lott might also depend on who is being put into the camps - by racial group? Religion? Crimes committed? Immigration status? After all, the folks the Nazis sent to the camps were mostly people who would have been given very short shrift by most people in society at the time. I'd like to hope we've 'evolved' since then, though sometimes I do wonder!

 

[reetpleat]

Perhaps Doran can enlighten us as to this question; To what extent did various people use propaganda is nthe past, such as Romans, Greeks, persians. And in what way did they do it. I know that in Ancient Rome, Graffitti was used for political gain through smear attacks on certain people.

Also, back in the day, did governments try to control what historians were writing? I know the Church, who probably employed most of the literate people in the middle ages, had quite a bit of control over what was recorded and repeated.