Nazi and Soviet Medallions

[Dr Doran]

No, I was saying it would be cool if you were going IN COSTUME to a COSTUME PARTY. It would be particularly cool if the PARTY were, for example, a WW2 DRESS-UP COSTUME PARTY. Let us say your uncle came to the party dressed as Roosevelt, your father as Churchill and your wife as Eva Braun, you as Hitler and your cousin Bill as Stalin. A costume party. We do a thing called Halloween in the USA. An acquaintance of mine came to my costume party as Jesus. HE WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN. I came as an executioner. I HAVE NEVER EXECUTED ANYONE. Another friend came as the Devil. HE IS NOT A SATANIST. However, a very very uptight Christian friend of mine told me that he will never come to my costume parties if people come dressed as Jesus because he finds that disrespectful. I told him "Fine. Don't come."

However, seeing that you would not find a costume party of this nature cool, I will refrain from inviting you if I throw one. Thanks for the heads-up in advance; I will still invite you to other parties I throw.

 

[Maguire]

Here's my pocket watch-

unfortunately the glare kind of makes the silver look goldish.

 

[Dr Doran]

Ohmigod, that's so uncool. STALIN KILLED MILLIONS.

Just kidding. That's a nice watch.

 

[BellyTank]

No, I was saying...

Huh..? Context..?

Someone delete a message..?


B
T

 

[Maguire]

Huh..? Context..?

Someone delete a message..?


B
T

Maybe he anticipated the critical post and decided to answer it first lol


I used to get really gungho about soviet things, it was an obsession of mine (my room is still filled with photos of soviet officials from Stalin's era). but doran is right, he killed millions, i'm tossing this watch off a bridge

 

[ethanedwards]

No, I was saying it would be cool if you were going IN COSTUME to a COSTUME PARTY. It would be particularly cool if the PARTY were, for example, a WW2 DRESS-UP COSTUME PARTY. Let us say your uncle came to the party dressed as Roosevelt, your father as Churchill and your wife as Eva Braun, you as Hitler and your cousin Bill as Stalin. A costume party. We do a thing called Halloween in the USA. An acquaintance of mine came to my costume party as Jesus. HE WAS NOT A CHRISTIAN. I came as an executioner. I HAVE NEVER EXECUTED ANYONE. Another friend came as the Devil. HE IS NOT A SATANIST. However, a very very uptight Christian friend of mine told me that he will never come to my costume parties if people come dressed as Jesus because he finds that disrespectful. I told him "Fine. Don't come."

However, seeing that you would not find a costume party of this nature cool, I will refrain from inviting you if I throw one. Thanks for the heads-up in advance; I will still invite you to other parties I throw.

I think there is a difficulty here in that Hitler and Stalin were not articles of an anachronistic religious faith or distant historical figures. Between them, millions of people did die. It's easily within living memory. And today, there are a great many people who endured shocking depravation and suffering, who are still alive. And I suppose when collectable icons from these times are regarded in a more trivial way, it does something to demean what these people went through. So it could be taken the wrong way. I'm not saying I'm taking it the wrong way, but perhaps there are others who are much more sensitive about it. And in the light of their experiences, I think they're entitled to be.
Guess I'm off your invite list too, but do have fun.

 

[dr greg]

time heals all wounds

I think it's just a matter of perspective as you point out, who would care if one went to a fancy dress party as Genghis Khan for instance, or even to better make the point, Tamurlane, who in his time, probably killed more people on a proportional basis than Hitler and Stalin put together. The time will come when it's all a matter of dry history.

 

[Spitfire]

Thank you

Thank you for speaking up ethanedwards.
You expressed my thoughts exactly. Thank you:eusa_clap

 

[MrBern]

illegal

also keep in mind that in some parts of the world, the nazi swastika is not just bad taste, but illegal to depict:

The German (and Austrian) postwar criminal code makes the public showing of the Hakenkreuz (the swastika) and other Nazi symbols illegal and punishable, except for scholarly reasons. It is even censored from the lithographs on boxes of model kits, and the decals that come in the box. It is also censored from the reprints of 1930s railway timetable published by Bundesbahn. The eagle remains, but appears to be holding a solid black circle between its talons. The swastikas on Hindu and Jain temples are exempt, as religious symbols cannot be banned in Germany.

As for Prince Harry, he apologized.
A good example that for many young people, the horrors of WWII are not fully comprehended.

 

[Staredge]

but doran is right, he killed millions, i'm tossing this watch off a bridge

I have a good tossing-stuff-off bridge near me.....send it to me and I'll take care of it for you!!!


That is a beautiful watch.

 

[Staredge]

also keep in mind that in some parts of the world, the nazi swastika is not just bad taste, but illegal to depict:

Yes, because by eliminating it from view, we can make sure it never happens again.

Much like the Holocaust memorial they have every year, where the German representative sits on the stage and is allowed to say NOTHING.

Wonder if they ever stopped to think that part of the reason for the rise of the National Socialists was the neutering of Germany after WWI.

 

[ethanedwards]

Yes, because by eliminating it from view, we can make sure it never happens again.

Much like the Holocaust memorial they have every year, where the German representative sits on the stage and is allowed to say NOTHING.

Wonder if they ever stopped to think that part of the reason for the rise of the National Socialists was the neutering of Germany after WWI.

I think the distinction was made - of course it's essential that the lessons of history are taught (but you could argue that it doesn't seem to do much good!) These items are freely available to be seen in museums and any numbers of books, where hopefully they are seen within a proper context and not merely as seductive objects from brutally savage regimes. It's when they're regarded in a light hearted or flippant way that, in my opinion, it becomes a misuse. I fully agree with you that to enforce denial can only be
counter productive.

 

[BellyTank]

Virtually ALL Nazi German Regalia is currently reproduced (quality ranging from crap, to "Museum quality/Jeweller made")and is freely available
for purchase (certain countries excepted, of course).

Is it flippant, or irresponsible for people to centre their business around the production and sale of such items?
Does this trivialise all that went on back then?

How do we feel about this?


B
T

 

[Spitfire]

Personally I find it very hard to separate the fascination of nazi regalia, medals, badges, uniforms etc. with a fascination of the evil, the terror and the murders behind those symbols.
I do not believe for one second that people collect these items because of their design or the craftmanship behind them.
But as long as there are clients for that stuff - people will produce them, sell them and earn money on the tragedy of that century.
Sorry - but thats just my oppinion.

Edit:
Please observe that I am talking NAZI regalia, badges, medals etc here.
I too have a clear destinction between the Nazi party (including Gestapo, SS and SA) - and the wehrmacht, luftwaffe and kriegsmarine. And yet I do not collect any of it.
(My father has a wehrmacht eagle badge somewhere - but that's another story. He took it from a german soldier who surrendered to him in may 45.)

 

[ethanedwards]

Virtually ALL Nazi German Regalia is currently reproduced (quality ranging from crap, to "Museum quality/Jeweller made")and is freely available
for purchase (certain countries excepted, of course).

Is it flippant, or irresponsible for people to centre their business around the production and sale of such items?
Does this trivialise all that went on back then?

How do we feel about this?


B
T

BT, that's a very good question, a very expansive question. For me at least, I don't have the wish to collect these items, and I'm not altogether clear why anyone would, because of what they represent - I can't draw a distinction between the aesthetics and the original purpose. My loss perhaps. But obviously a great many people do, hence this market. You've made a good point in that it's tough to know where to draw the line - e.g. is an ELC A2 OK, but an ELC Luftwaffe jacket not OK? Playing games such as Tour of Duty on Playstation - what these soldiers went through now passes as entertainment for us? Is it OK to make a Hasegawa Spitfire 1a, but not a Bf109e? I don't have a coherent answer, I remember discussing this to some extent with Edward as to why 'our' stuff should be OK and 'theirs' is not. There are countless victims on all sides - someone who survived the Dresden raid might not hold an Irvin with the same regard as I do for instance. People who do buy and collect such nazi regalia, I would hope with the greatest of respect that they are mindful of who originally made these things and why.The capacity to view all this with a cool headed impartiality would be good, but I feel it scorns the memory of so many who gave and lost so much.

 

[ethanedwards]

Sorry Spitfire, I posted before reading yours, we seem to be saying much the same thing, but apologies for labouring the same points.

 

[BellyTank]

Well-
collecting "German" WW2 militaria has been and still is an interest of mine.
Since a lot of people, me included, are able to make a distinction between the Wehrmacht and the SS, (i.e.- the National Armed Forces of Germany vs. the military, political, police, etc. branches of the SS/Nazi Party.) I have no guilt, or worries about being interested in and collecting the "non-Nazi" uniforms, equipment or regalia.
I am also interested in German militaria from their early 20th Century Colonies and the Great War. Great War, WW2- it follows that there would be some interest carried over from one to the next...

As far as collecting and owning "Nazi" militaria is concerned, I generally stay away from it, or keep it to myself- not because I have any feelings, or guilt attached to it but because of the feelings of others and that THEY may think me some kind of Neo-Nazi sicko for being interested in the stuff.
That is sad.

BUT remember- Collecting (anything)is a hobby and it's not just about OWNING the stuff- it's the whole deal- learning about it, chasing it, finding it, being a shark, getting a good deal and getting the rare stuff.
Any collector wants the rare stuff and Nazi militaria is the exotica of German militaria, so it's popular, rare and expensive.

I don't personally see that "these artifacts" (although it depends exactly what they are)necessarily represent the regime- the regime is long gone- the artifacts are now expensive trinkets from a dark part of history. The evil-doers represented their deeds themselves, when they were alive and I don't see that these inanimate objects keep that evil alive. It is dead.

I, personally, draw a distinction between having a collection of Wafen SS uniforms and owning portraits of Hitler. I draw a distinction between owning SS uniforms from a front-line fighting unit and uniforms from concentration camp guards, or Algemeine/Political SS/SA/Brownshirts.

There are many distinctions that can be made, rightly, or wrongly, and dependent upon beliefs, background, knowledge, or ignorance.

I'm sure that most collectors of German and Nazi militaria have absolutely no Nazi sentiments. I know quite a few collectors myself. Of course there are always a few deranged people- in all walks of life

At the same time, I can see that some people cannot understand that others can separate the two.


B
T

 

[ethanedwards]

BT, I still cannot imagine wanting to own this stuff myself. Maybe, as Dr. Greg said, when it becomes dry history, it'll become a lot less emotive - but for now it just doesn't sit right with me. But thanks for putting across the collectors point of view in such a measured way, I enjoyed reading your intelligent and articulate response to a difficult, controversial topic.

 

[Edward]

Here's my pocket watch-

unfortunately the glare kind of makes the silver look goldish.

These are very nice pocket watches. Intrigues me in a way that the Soviet stuff doesn't seem to have the same level of negativity attached to it as the Third reich stuff, but then the war has been kept very alive in the popular imagination ever since, and the Russians fought on the side of the Allies, so perhaps that buys the Soviets a little indulgence? I do find this an intersting subject. I'm fascinated myself by Soviet imagery and yet I'm not a fan of the Soviet regime.... Interesting debate.

For those who are interested in such Soviet timepieces, there is an excellent range available via www.russia4u.co.uk. My daily wear wristwatch for the past five years has been a military issue Vostok automatic. Wonderful watch, general one of the most accurate ones I've owned and the watch that convinced me to move wholly away from quartz and towards a mechanical-only approach. There is a full range of the Molnija pocket watches here:

http://www.russianwatches.co.uk/products.php?cat=10

Some are emblazoned with Soviet imagery, some not. I'm planning myself to pick up one of the plainer ones for formal evening wear.

 

[PrettySquareGal]

The time will come when it's all a matter of dry history.

God forbid.