Native language/dialect...disappearing

[esteban68]

Sounds like Norfolk/Suffolk accent AT specifically the Great Yarmouth area which is down east in the UK I suppose, it's coastal with still quite a bit of fishing going on. 'Hev yew gotta loight boy' on youtube gives you an idea.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Down here in the Southwest corner of Germany, the local dialect (Badisch) is still thriving. Just over the border in France however (Alsace), the locals have been concerned about dying out of the local dialect (Elsässich), which is a mixture of Badisch and French. Over the last couple of years, some schools have been re-introducing it and there is now at least one daily newspaper issued only in Elsässisch.

I wasn't aware that German was ever spoken in Texas - that's a new one on me.

 

[HudsonHawk]

There is a dialect of English that exists in the remote communities of eastern Carteret, Pamlico, Dare and Hyde Counties here in North Carolina. It is locally known as the "Down East" accent. Yes...I know there is a New England "Down East" accent, too, but this one is different. It is peppered with words and idioms that don't exist elsewhere in modern English...and its brogue is so thick that it is almost unintelligible to most outsiders. I have always heard that it is the remnant of the language used by those who settled this area in the late 1600s. Many believe their old way of speaking has been preserved over the centuries by geographical isolation. Indeed, until recently, many of the communities where the dialect exists were accessible only by boat or by very difficult overland travel.

But the Down East accent is slowly disappearing. During the last fifty years roads and bridges have been built to these communities, Down East school districts have been consolidated with communities further west, cable television and telephones have become available to the islanders and tourists have begun to arrive in flocks. Worse yet, many tourists have decided to stay. You can still hear the Down East brogue in remote places like Sea Level, Atlantic and Stacy...but it has become diluted. Except among the very old timers Down East, it is now almost a "twang" as opposed to a dialect.

Here's a small sample of the (perhaps modernized) "Down East" North Carolina dialect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfsxPCqkxog

AF

I have heard this one, when I used to live in NC and worked a little along the outer banks. They're speaking "English", but you'd never understand a word of it.

 

[cpdv]

Here in Maine, French is still spoken widely in Lewiston and portions of Augusta -- communities which have had a historically-significant population of Quebecois descent. This is not high school French, it's very much a North American variation, and here it's often overlaid with a thick Maine accent. It's pretty much incomprehensible to anyone who wasn't raised on it, and those who do speak it nowadays are usually middle-aged or older. The kids don't have much use for any language that isn't spoken on TV.

Right near here we had a strong Finnish-language community in the 19th and early 20th centuries, but while there are plenty of local families with Finnish names, the language itself is all but extinct.

Our most notable language here was Penobscot, which is undergoing something of a rebirth on the reservations, and which is still very much a part of our local place names. If you can say "Passagassawaukeag" without stumbling, you're a real Mainer.

Growing up we used a little quebecois french at home not much but some. Theres very few people here who still speak in a "Brunswick dialect" and even then it was split into the french(speaking english) and english versions with just a hair of difference between the two. I think honestly I'm one of the few younger people I know who actually speak like it. I get people in Freeport where I work saying "wow you sound different than everyone else here" and thats because I'm actually from here and not a transplant or child of transplants.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I live in Eastern Oklahoma and am a member of the Cherokee tribe. The Cherokee language is quickly dying. When I was a kid I heard it frequently but now only rarely. You have to go far into the hills to find it in daily use. As the older generation that spoke it in the house passes on the youngsters put less and less importance on it till it's to late, even though the Nation gives classes continually. If you haven't heard it before - it is a beautiful language that deserves to live on.

I saw a TV advertisement only last night for a Jeep model sold here (not sure if it is in the USA) called a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and I found it annoying that a product used the name of a great nation of people for commercial reasons. That thinking led me to wonder about the Cherokee people today and their customs and language. So you've given me a bit of an answer there Dan! I hope the language is conserved and continues to flourish in spite of the influence of external mainstream culture on it.

 

[HudsonHawk]

I saw a TV advertisement only last night for a Jeep model sold here (not sure if it is in the USA) called a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and I found it annoying that a product used the name of a great nation of people for commercial reasons. That thinking led me to wonder about the Cherokee people today and their customs and language. So you've given me a bit of an answer there Dan! I hope the language is conserved and continues to flourish in spite of the influence of external mainstream culture on it.

Jeep has made the Cherokee for 30+ years. They made a pickup version of it called the "Comanche". Mazda made a vehicle called the "Navajo". Pontiac made the "Aztec". Chevrolet had the "Cheyenne". In fact "Pontiac" is named for a Native American tribal chief. I'm not sure how Native Americans feel about it, but using such names as labels for products is not new or uncommon.

 

[AtomicEraTom]

Very proud of my M'waukee accent, though not as prominent as the older members of my family. However, I'm the first of 5 generations not to spend the entirety of their youth in Milwaukee.

I can always tell who's from back home by talking to them and vice versa.

http://www.onmilwaukee.com/buzz/articles/accent.html

 

[Benny Holiday]

Jeep has made the Cherokee for 30+ years. They made a pickup version of it called the "Comanche". Mazda made a vehicle called the "Navajo". Pontiac made the "Aztec". Chevrolet had the "Cheyenne". In fact "Pontiac" is named for a Native American tribal chief. I'm not sure how Native Americans feel about it, but using such names as labels for products is not new or uncommon.

Oh man that's quite a list! Here's a link to an interesting NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/a...me-ethnic-identities.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Probably straying a bit close to politics without meaning to, just found it curious as in Australia it would be considered very offensive if a company like, say, General Motors Holden brought out a vehicle model called Gundungurra or Dharawal, being tribal names of indigenous peoples.

 

[Renault]

There is an old story about the west Texas town of Mobeetie. When it came time to name the town after it received a post office, I think the locals wanted to call of Sweetwater. But that name was already taken. So they decided it needed a more local name. The story goes they asked an old Native American man from the area what would be a good name. He stated they ought to call the place "Mobeetie". I can't remember wht he told 'em it meant. But evidently it means "buffalo dung".

Least that's the story.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Oh man that's quite a list! Here's a link to an interesting NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/23/a...me-ethnic-identities.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Probably straying a bit close to politics without meaning to, just found it curious as in Australia it would be considered very offensive if a company like, say, General Motors Holden brought out a vehicle model called Gundungurra or Dharawal, being tribal names of indigenous peoples.

Great article...thanks for the link. As it points out, the use of Native American names and imagery is a controversial topic, one that is much discussed. Most of the more offensive uses and caricatures have been eliminated, but there are some still in use.

And I don't see this as getting into politics. The US government's dealings with the indigenous peoples was not our country's finest hour. That's not really politics, just history.

 

[Miss Sis]

THIS is exactly what I was thinking of...20 km apart, speaking essentially different languages. Thanks!

Do you know if that's common all over Europe? I would think it used to be quite common in the US, as so many immigrants settled here in such a very short period of time.

On a side note, a good friend of mine lived in Groningen for a number of years. He married a local girl and brought her back to the US. They've taught their kids different languages by each of them speaking to the kids in different languages...one in English, one in "Dutch". I don't know if the "Dutch" is High Dutch or Gronings, but I'm guessing the former.

Some words look the same written down but are said completely differently, others are just completely different! It's confusing for me as I don't speak Dutch anyway but am eager to learn some, to then find I am learning words that most other Dutch people won't understand! I'm certain your friend's children will be speaking High Dutch and not Groniegens dialect. I don't think they actually spoke it in Groniegen as that is where my Aunt was from (the one who couldn't understand it!)

Yes, certainly there were many dialects spoken all over Europe. Switzerland especially had many since it is a mountainous country, and sometimes each valley had it's own dialect, which developed as they were very isolated places in the 'old days' before roads, radio and such like.

....my Dutch father in law speaks seven languages says that it is one of the most difficult to learn to it's different origins...however he says he dreams in English not Dutch!

My Dad says he thinks, dreams and much prefers to read in English, but then he has been fifty years living in New Zealand and speaking it every day! He decided not to teach me Dutch as a child as he didn't think it 'useful' enough. Great shame as my Grandparents and Aunts didn't/don't speak English and my Dutch Uncle and Aunt also emigrated to New Zealand when I was one, so I could have got some practice in! Mind you, they were busy learning English then....

 

[sheeplady]

I find it interesting that the Amish have so readily been able to keep their "German" language intact while being bilingual with the "English" (us non-Amish U.S. people). It's probably helped greatly by their technological isolation, but it is still surprising.

Great article...thanks for the link. As it points out, the use of Native American names and imagery is a controversial topic, one that is much discussed. Most of the more offensive uses and caricatures have been eliminated, but there are some still in use.

There was an interesting "log" of current schools and entities that were non-nation in origin or existence that used American Indian figures as mascots or in their names at the Wounded Knee museum in South Dakota. (It appears they now have it online: http://blog.woundedkneemuseum.org/p/i-am-not-mascot.html). The museum had asked people to add to the log. I looked through it and it was absolutely shocking to me how many schools reportedly still had American Indian mascots. I've heard of one case where a nation voted to encourage the mascot to remain their cultural name at a local college close to them (I believe it was in Florida), but some of these mascots are down right offensive. I have to wonder where these people live that it doesn't occur to them how offensive it is.

One of my alma maters had the "Saltine Warrior" as their mascot for decades, but about 15 or even 20 years or so ago replaced their mascot with Otto, who is a large orange, since they are known as "the orange" because of their school colors.

As a side note, I highly highly recommend Wounded Knee, the museum. It is an absolute *must see* if you are interested in American History. It's out in a little town in South Dakota but worth the trip. I have to warn you though, it is one of two museums that have ever had me in tears in the U.S.- the other is the Holocaust museum in Washington, D.C. It's a small museum but it takes you through the events of that massacre. Because it doesn't hide or gloss over details and uses original source documents and images it might not be appropriate for children under age 8 to 10 unless the parent is willing to do a lot of translation or the child is quite emotionally mature. They had a transcript from a doctor who testified at a hearing following the massacre and the story of a woman with two young children, one a baby, all of whom were shot after running two miles away from the original site where the genocide started sticks with me to this day. I think it's a far far more important place to visit than Little Big Horn.

 

[HudsonHawk]

As a side note, I highly highly recommend Wounded Knee, the museum. It is an absolute *must see* if you are interested in American History. It's out in a little town in South Dakota but worth the trip. I have to warn you though, it is one of two museums that have ever had me in tears in the U.S.- the other is the Holocaust museum in Washington, D.C. It's a small museum but it takes you through the events of that massacre. Because it doesn't hide or gloss over details and uses original source documents and images it might not be appropriate for children under age 8 to 10 unless the parent is willing to do a lot of translation or the child is quite emotionally mature. They had a transcript from a doctor who testified at a hearing following the massacre and the story of a woman with two young children, one a baby, all of whom were shot after running two miles away from the original site where the genocide started sticks with me to this day. I think it's a far far more important place to visit than Little Big Horn.

I read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee many years ago. It's a good narrative of the last century of Native Americans in the west. I would like to visit the museum someday.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Great article...thanks for the link. As it points out, the use of Native American names and imagery is a controversial topic, one that is much discussed. Most of the more offensive uses and caricatures have been eliminated, but there are some still in use.

And I don't see this as getting into politics. The US government's dealings with the indigenous peoples was not our country's finest hour. That's not really politics, just history.

The same goes for the English/Australian governments, beginning in the late 1700s. An awful history indeed.

 

[sheeplady]

I read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee many years ago. It's a good narrative of the last century of Native Americans in the west. I would like to visit the museum someday.

Apparently it is in a new location because the building I saw it in burnt a little while ago and it sounds like it expanded. Definitely plan a few hours. I only learned about Wounded Knee when I was a kid from the Buffy Sainte Marie song, not surprisingly, not a word was taught about it in my school, even in the 1990s. (I do remember hearing the Ghost Dances mentioned and how they contributed to fear of American Indian cultures and the push for placing Nations on reservations, but not Wounded Knee and not in any detail.) I'm not sure if anyone learns about it in school even today.

Don't bother with the retail mecca of Wall Drugs, except to run in to grab your 10 cent ice cream cone.

I highly highly recommend vacationing in South Dakota. You could spend 2 weeks in the Black Hills if you wanted going to a different historical site everyday, not to mention all the sights across the state. South Dakota, unfortunately, has a very sad history with its' American Indian populations. But if you look in the right places, I think it's one of the best resources for teaching and learning about what happened but also the current problems and the steps being taken (and the steps NOT being taken) to heal old wounds.

 

[cpdv]

The same goes for the English/Australian governments, beginning in the late 1700s. An awful history indeed.

And the common factor in these situations is...English people going to where other people live and treating them like garbage. I'm of Irish and French/Abenaki heritage and have a long memory and thats as far into politics as I will stray on the FL. Back on subject I find regional dialects and whole other languages fascinating. I dabbled in Occitan for a while for fun. Quite the interesting medieval language and one the French government insists does not exist.

 

[HudsonHawk]

And the common factor in these situations is...English people going to where other people live and treating them like garbage. I'm of Irish and French/Abenaki heritage and have a long memory and thats as far into politics as I will stray on the FL. Back on subject I find regional dialects and whole other languages fascinating. I dabbled in Occitan for a while for fun. Quite the interesting medieval language and one the French government insists does not exist.

Well, the mistreatment by conquering people isn't unique to the English. That's as old as human history. The French had their run-ins with Native Americans, and no one was more brutal to them than the Spanish.

 

[Renault]

I used to be pretty good with the mobilian dialect. Muskogean linguistics group. A kinda pidgin trade language that was used from Florida to east Texas. All of the Muskogean groups are very similar. In many instances easy for a Creek to understand a Choctaw. But don't have many places to use it so I e forgotten a lot!

Cherokee on the other hand is of the Algonkian linguistics group. Completely different.

 

[Smithy]

Fascinating thread, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it :eusa_clap

 

[cpdv]

Well, the mistreatment by conquering people isn't unique to the English. That's as old as human history. The French had their run-ins with Native Americans, and no one was more brutal to them than the Spanish.

With the Iriquois but thats because they were allied with the Heron against them. For instance during the 7 years war during the English occupation of Acadia and forceful expulsion of the inhabitants the Acadians and Mi'kmaq & Maliseet fought a guerrilla war against them. During that period a large part of the indigenous people in New France were a odd combination of Catholicism and their traditional beliefs and not in the form of what the Spanish did with "convert or die". The French were very laissez faire about them. Theres a reason why i'm part Abenaki and its because they didn't have the same contempt for them the English did. More recently (past 400 years or so) its been a very English thing to force people out of their homes in for instance the winter and forcibly relocate them to some barren place. The English at Jamestown coloney in Virgina under Lord De La Warr used what they called "Irish Tactics" Ie what they used in Ireland to defeat the Powhatans. It consisted of taking a town killing/raping inhabitants taking anything of use and burning everything. And agreed the Spanish were the worst!