Nagasaki

[Story]

Nanking, 1937
http://www.bergen.org/AAST/Projects/ChinaHistory/rape.html

Unit 731
http://www.technologyartist.com/unit_731/

Assorted Japanese atrocities
http://www.skycitygallery.com/japan/japan.html

 

[pablocham]

There is substantial information, at least there was in 1946, that Japan detonated a nuclear device in the Konan, Korea (North Korea now). It would have been folly to make up a story locating it in and area that would have probably been investigated. No one knew then that that area would reamain secret to the outside to this day.

It has been surpressed...

Please give a reputable source for this extremely unusual point of view which is not supported by any mainstream historian.

 

[LaMedicine]

Let me repeat myself.

What am I supposed to say about this? Opinions can be said no end, but there is only one truth. The atomic bomb was used twice and the result was devastating. It is something that should never be used again, but as an international society are any of us doing something that is effective?

There are too many in the world who toy with the idea of the ultimate weapon which infuriates those who have experienced either Hiroshima or Nagasaki, and such was the ire at the root of the mayor's speech.

Plenty can be said about the events that lead up to the bombing. Plenty of rationaliztion can be made, and they are valid, too.

However, there are a number of things AFTER the bombings that have affected so many people, and what makes the biggest difference in the emotions of the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

What of the effects of the residual radiation from the bombs? Not only were the people affected by the direct effect of the bombs, namely the explosion itself, that flattened a vast area, but they continued to be poisoned for years by the radation that remained long after the cities were rebuilt.

In the Chernobyl (sp?) disaster, the residents of the area surrounding the power plant were evacuated and are not yet able to return. (Now I'll admit I do not have the facts of how much radiation was released in that disaster compared to the A bombs, so which was greater, I don't know but the point is, anyone with knowledge now would flee such an area in fear of their lives and future health.) No such thing was done with the two cities.

Sure, access to the cities were limited for a while, but this was for security reasons, rather than the danger of the effect of radiation. No one, not the Allied Occupation Force, not the Japanese government, made a move to evacuate the residents. As soon as they could, the people moved back to where they had been living without any knowledge of the danger of the continuing high levels of radiation.

If you did not die from the bombings themselves, or from the injuries sustained then, you could and would still die from radiation disease. For a long time, the people feared the malaise that disabled them, even if they had survived the bombs, had been miles away from ground zero, and it was years later.

Those who were never close enough at the time of the bombings, but had gone into the cities in search of missing families suddenly coming down with a mysterious disease that started with bleeding from thier gums, that eventually spread to the nose, to the entire body, and would not stop bleeding.

A seemingly healthy person suddenly being overcome by fatigue so severe that they cannot rise from their beds, and wasting away despiste all the loving care from their family. Such is the reality in the lives of those who survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki. No one knew, no one was told, (exept the select few) of how much deeper the effect of the bombs were than what could be seen on the surface.

And, it is not only fear for themselves, It is also fear for their future generations. Although medical date up to this date does not substanciate the claim that the radiation will have an effect on morbidity and mortality in the second and third generation "Hibakusha", who knows how the data will change as my generation (post war baby boomers) grow older.

I have a friend, one of my med school classmates, whoes parents both were Hiroshima survivors. He died 20 years ago at 37 from cancer. That in itself is not rare, but what TYPE of cancer, and WHERE it first appeared was something that flabbergasted the rest of our class. He died from choriocarcinoma which is very malignant, and is known to originate form hydatid moles, a form of pregnancy gone awry.

Yes, pregnacy, As in women. He was an ob/gyn and researching that particular cancer. One day, when he was making a culture of the cancer cells, he accidentally dropped the culture needle impregnated with the cell on his thigh. That was where the first tumorous growth appeared, a few months later. Normally, our immune system would immediatly reject such an infvasion. The only explanation we came up with, was that his immune system must have been compromised, possibly a legacy from his parents' history, and I was told later that his parents were actually questioning themselvs whether their exposure had anything to do with his illness.

Would YOU want to live with such a legacy? Would you want YOUR CHILDREN to live with such a legacy?

It's this kind of legacy that makes the people of Hiroshima and Nagaski angry at their own Japanese governmemt, never mind that the Prime Minister attended the memorial ceremonies, they want action, not words, and angry at the nations who refuse to contain and get rid of their nuclear weapons, and at nations and their leaders who toy with the idea of such weapons as a way to make a claim for their grandiose dreams of power.

 

[Lincsong]

What we should remember is that only one nation has ever used nuclear weapons, and thankfully the U.S. has never used it again. But, what we have seen recently is absolute nutcases like Kim Jong Il and Mahmoud Admanijehad talk flippantly about using it. The U.S. had a reason to use them, these two don't. That is what we must remember in the present context. The Civilized World cannot allow rogue nations to possess weapons that will cause exponential harm to innocent people.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

A LEGACY...

The people of Japan learned a very valuable lesson in August 1945 and they learned their lesson well. Japan has been a peace loving and peaceful nation and culture ever since. I fear Iran, Syria and Lebanon are going to learn the same valuable lesson - in much the same hard way. Peaceful people can only tolerate so much for so long before acting. The survival of Japanese culture, free of warlords and militaristic leadership is testament to the success of that decisive policy. It is indeed a terrible thing when others do not learn the lessons of history.

Godspeed Iran!

-dixon cannon

 

[Lincsong]

There is substantial information, at least there was in 1946, that Japan detonated a nuclear device in the Konan, Korea (North Korea now). It would have been folly to make up a story locating it in and area that would have probably been investigated. No one knew then that that area would reamain secret to the outside to this day.

It has been surpressed along with the fact that Germany could have, at any time after 1942, deployed a radiation bomb. The threats the Axis powers held have been dismissed, minimized or outright lied about in an effort to pump up the invincible legend of the Allies.

The threats of the Axis powers have also been minimized by those who want to tear down the U.S., believe we are an evil nation. Basically the Michael Moore types. Thank-you Twitch for bringing up this important point.:eusa_clap

 

[Story]

Please give a reputable source for this extremely unusual point of view which is not supported by any mainstream historian.

Articles from the Atlanta Constitution, circa 1946
http://www.cabotia.com/atlanta-constitution.html

 

[pablocham]

I said a reputable source. Wikipedia does a pretty good job of showing where that newspaper article stands in relation to legitimate history and mainstream historians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atomic_program#Development

You are basically suggesting that the entire history of nuclear weapons is a lie, and that there has been a conspiracy by historians to cover up the truth. What is more, do you really think that the Japanese, had they had a nuclear device, would not have used it against the U.S.?

 

[Lincsong]

Articles from the Atlanta Constitution, circa 1946
http://www.cabotia.com/atlanta-constitution.html

This is a very interesting article. Perhaps General MacArthur is the only one who knows exactly what occurred. I definetely would not put it past Japan to have been developing an atomic bomb.

 

[Lincsong]

I said a reputable source. Wikipedia does a pretty good job of showing where that newspaper article stands in relation to legitimate history and mainstream historians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_atomic_program#Development

You are basically suggesting that the entire history of nuclear weapons is a lie, and that there has been a conspiracy by historians to cover up the truth. What is more, do you really think that the Japanese, had they had a nuclear device, would not have used it against the U.S.?

Wikpedia? The encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone! Give me a break! Name some reputable historians who deny that Japan had been developing a nuclear weapon. PLEASE NOTE!: I said REPUTABLE HISTORIANS! I'm more apt to believe something written 60 years ago than some revisionist theory written in the past 60 days.

 

[airfrogusmc]

My father had started training for the invasion of Japan when the two bombs (Nagasaki and Hiroshima) were dropped. If the battle for Okinawa was any indication of the type of battle the Japanese Island would have been did we have another choice? More people actually died in the fire bombings than died in the atomic bomb blasts and Japan still wouldn't surrender.

 

[pablocham]

Wikpedia? The encyclopedia that can be edited by anyone! Give me a break! Name some reputable historians who deny that Japan had been developing a nuclear weapon. PLEASE NOTE!: I said REPUTABLE HISTORIANS! I'm more apt to believe something written 60 years ago than some revisionist theory written in the past 60 days.

If you had bothered to look at the link--instead of shouting--you would have seen that it discusses the article and gives several references. So what you do is you use your mouse or arrow key to scroll downward to where the cited sources are.

Personally I will take Wikipedia over a article sixty year old article from an Atlanta paper. What am I, crazy? EEK! a study by the journal Nature found that Wikipedia was about as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm?ls

I imagine that you will conclude from this not that Wikipedia is fairly trustworthy, but that the Encyclopedia Britannica can no longer be trusted. Good luck with that.

 

[TM]

I have to say that the concept of either the Japanese or the Germans successfully testing an atomic bomb is pretty inconceivable. And the proof of that is primarily economic. Neither country had the resources to allocate to such a project. The Manhattan Project required, among other things, the construction of the largest building in the world (at the time, of course). To separate the “high octane” materials, you need the following:

A ten-foot tall cylinder, retained in an outer cylinder, the intervening space of vacuum

The interior cylinder spins at 80,000 RPM. Yes, that’s 80,000 revolutions per minute. And how many machines today operate at that velocity?

Pump in Uranium hexafloride gas. Which is both caustic and radioactive.

Daisy chain these cylinders together, so that the output of the first one feeds into the second one, etc.

Build 10,000 of those.

Let them run for an entire year.

That makes enough material for one atomic bomb.

Does anyone really believe that any of the Axis powers had the spare resources for this kind of program at the end of the war?

Tony

 

[Lincsong]

No Revisionism bought, sold or traded here.

If you had bothered to look at the link--instead of shouting--you would have seen that it discusses the article and gives several references. So what you do is you use your mouse or arrow key to scroll downward to where the cited sources are.

Personally I will take Wikipedia over a article sixty year old article from an Atlanta paper. What am I, crazy? EEK! a study by the journal Nature found that Wikipedia was about as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm?ls

I imagine that you will conclude from this not that Wikipedia is fairly trustworthy, but that the Encyclopedia Britannica can no longer be trusted. Good luck with that.

I did look up the link, that's why I say it's nothing but nonsenselol . Cited sources? I'm not going to believe a whitewashed attempt to rewrite history. Let's see, something written from fresh accounts in 1946 is not to be trusted, but an encyclopedia that anyone can edit is to be trusted? This Wikpedia article sounds like more revisionist nonsense; oh the Germans and Japanese were of no threat to us, they couldn't have developed a bomb, the US was over reacting.

Germany and Japan had started their nuclear programs before the start of WWII. They had plenty of time to develop a bomb. Luckily they never made a bomb, but they definetely were on that path.

 

[Terry Lennox]

so the thread has turned from the 61st anniversary of an A-Bomb blast, to how great or not so great an internet site is?

Nice way to loose scope of what this tread is about.

 

[Lincsong]

so the thread has turned from the 61st anniversary of an A-Bomb blast, to how great or not so great an internet site is?

Nice way to loose scope of what this tread is about.

I agree :eusa_clap let's get back on topic.

 

[pablocham]

Luckily they never made a bomb, but they definetely were on that path.

[huh] That is all I am saying. I did not criticize the Nagasaki bombing, did not criticize the U.S., and certainly did not deny that both axis powers worked on a bomb. All I took issue with is this cockamamie and unsubstantiated story that the Japanese detonated a nuke, a story that you yourself just conceded is false.

 

[Zemke Fan]

Not sure where this thread is headed...

I have been closely monitoring this thread, and don't believe that there is much more that can be added to it. I will give it another day or so and then it will be closed to posts. Please, all, do your best to keep this debate civil. So far, I have not edited any posts for content. However, I'm getting closer as things heat up. -- ZF

 

[Story]

Moving back to the original intent of this thread

A counterpoint to Nagasaki's marking of time -

R.I. Last State Still Marking V-J Day
By CHELSEA PHUA
Associated Press Writer
Aug 13, 2:24 PM EDT

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) -- Church bells rang. Whistles at fire stations and mill factories sounded. People poured into the streets, waving flags and honking car horns. It was Aug. 14, 1945 - the day Americans learned that Japan had surrendered, ending the costliest conflict in human history.

"It was pandemonium with happiness," remembered John Lucas, a World War II veteran and executive secretary of the Pawtucket Veterans Council.

On Monday, Rhode Island will once again observe the end of World War II, the only state still celebrating Victory Day, commonly referred to as Victory over Japan Day, or V-J Day.

Critics say it's discriminatory, and would like to eliminate the holiday or at least remove its reference to Japan.

They point out that Rhode Islanders do not celebrate the U.S. victory over Germany, which was defeated three months earlier.

"This is a stigma against the Japanese whom we do business with and are allies," said George Lima, a former state representative who worked on a failed attempt to eliminate the holiday in the 1980s.

Veterans groups remain committed to the holiday, celebrated on the second Monday of August.

"This is the way the veterans feel about it in Rhode Island," said George Panichas, a former legislator who was a gunner on a B-17 bomber during World War II. "They fought against the Japanese, and they just don't forget it."

There have been several attempts to change the holiday's name, but each time lawmakers met overwhelming opposition, said state Sen. Rhoda Perry. She introduced bills in 1992, 1994 and 1995 to change the holiday to Rhode Island Veterans Day. A second 1995 bill would have changed it to Peace and Remembrance Day.

Perry said she received "vitriolic" mail from veterans.

"It was absolutely a no-winner," Perry said. "I did not have support, period."

However, the General Assembly passed a 1990 resolution stating that Victory Day is not a day to express satisfaction in the destruction and death caused by nuclear bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

People need the holiday to remember the sacrifices veterans made during the war, said James Brennan, a survivor of the 1942 Bataan Death March in which Japanese soldiers tortured and killed thousands of American and Filipino prisoners.

However, Brennan said he does not harbor ill feelings toward the Japanese and does not believe the holiday incites racism or hatred.

"July 4 is our national holiday because we defeated England. Do we hate the English? No," he said. "It's the same with V-J Day. We are the ones who won the war."

Joe Davis, a spokesman for the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Washington, said he is glad Rhode Island has kept the holiday.

"Rhode Island is continuing to celebrate a great victory at a tremendous cost," Davis said, noting the deaths of about 400,000 Americans in World War II.

Arkansas is believed to be the last state to drop Victory Day. When the legislature listed official state holidays in 1975, it omitted Victory Day, which it had called World War II Memorial Day, state capital historian David Ware said. The holiday appears to have been omitted without much fuss, Ware said.

"What happens over time is that people's memories fade," said Marilyn Zoidis, a curator at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History. "If there's not a strong enough memory to support a holiday, there's no strong reason to keep funding it."

That's what some hope will happen in Rhode Island.

Mikki Lima, a Japanese-American who runs the Rhode Island Japan Society in Providence, said she is working to educate younger Americans about Japanese culture. If the holiday can't be eliminated, she hopes it can at least be celebrated under a new name because of Victory Day's implicit reference to the victory over Japan.

"Someday, this foolish holiday's name will be changed," Lima said.

 

[Lincsong]

A counterpoint to Nagasaki's marking of time -

R.I. Last State Still Marking V-J Day
By CHELSEA PHUA
Associated Press Writer
Aug 13, 2:24 PM EDT

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) -- Church bells rang. Whistles at fire stations and mill factories sounded. People poured into the streets, waving flags and honking car horns. It was Aug. 14, 1945 - the day Americans learned that Japan had surrendered, ending the costliest conflict in human history.

"It was pandemonium with happiness," remembered John Lucas, a World War II veteran and executive secretary of the Pawtucket Veterans Council.

On Monday, Rhode Island will once again observe the end of World War II, the only state still celebrating Victory Day, commonly referred to as Victory over Japan Day, or V-J Day.

Critics say it's discriminatory, and would like to eliminate the holiday or at least remove its reference to Japan.

They point out that Rhode Islanders do not celebrate the U.S. victory over Germany, which was defeated three months earlier.

"This is a stigma against the Japanese whom we do business with and are allies," said George Lima, a former state representative who worked on a failed attempt to eliminate the holiday in the 1980s.

Veterans groups remain committed to the holiday, celebrated on the second Monday of August.

"This is the way the veterans feel about it in Rhode Island," said George Panichas, a former legislator who was a gunner on a B-17 bomber during World War II. "They fought against the Japanese, and they just don't forget it."

There have been several attempts to change the holiday's name, but each time lawmakers met overwhelming opposition, said state Sen. Rhoda Perry. She introduced bills in 1992, 1994 and 1995 to change the holiday to Rhode Island Veterans Day. A second 1995 bill would have changed it to Peace and Remembrance Day.

Perry said she received "vitriolic" mail from veterans.

"It was absolutely a no-winner," Perry said. "I did not have support, period."

However, the General Assembly passed a 1990 resolution stating that Victory Day is not a day to express satisfaction in the destruction and death caused by nuclear bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

People need the holiday to remember the sacrifices veterans made during the war, said James Brennan, a survivor of the 1942 Bataan Death March in which Japanese soldiers tortured and killed thousands of American and Filipino prisoners.

However, Brennan said he does not harbor ill feelings toward the Japanese and does not believe the holiday incites racism or hatred.

"July 4 is our national holiday because we defeated England. Do we hate the English? No," he said. "It's the same with V-J Day. We are the ones who won the war."

Joe Davis, a spokesman for the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Washington, said he is glad Rhode Island has kept the holiday.

"Rhode Island is continuing to celebrate a great victory at a tremendous cost," Davis said, noting the deaths of about 400,000 Americans in World War II.

Arkansas is believed to be the last state to drop Victory Day. When the legislature listed official state holidays in 1975, it omitted Victory Day, which it had called World War II Memorial Day, state capital historian David Ware said. The holiday appears to have been omitted without much fuss, Ware said.

"What happens over time is that people's memories fade," said Marilyn Zoidis, a curator at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History. "If there's not a strong enough memory to support a holiday, there's no strong reason to keep funding it."

That's what some hope will happen in Rhode Island.

Mikki Lima, a Japanese-American who runs the Rhode Island Japan Society in Providence, said she is working to educate younger Americans about Japanese culture. If the holiday can't be eliminated, she hopes it can at least be celebrated under a new name because of Victory Day's implicit reference to the victory over Japan.

"Someday, this foolish holiday's name will be changed," Lima said.

Let's see Nov. 11 is a celebration of our victory over Germany in WWI. So why not celebrate the victory over Japan? More political correctness gone awry.