My trade bait pile of hats!

[deadlyhandsome]

I appreciate the conversation my postings first-half created.

But the bigger issue here, which I addressed in the second half, is the destruction of vintage hats which is bothering the OP to the point of wanting to leave permanently. The destruction which is being so heavily supported every time it occurs, it fuels the fire and it happens again and again.

I completely understand why OP is extremely bothered by it, as myself and I know other collectors and vintage lovers are too.

I said it once. i'll say it again. Hunting for a grail hat is all good and well, but when you find one, have it pulled apart and blocked up 3 or 4 sizes, it is NO LONGER the hat you were seeking. It's a custom hat using vintage felt. That's it, regardless of keeping the sweatband or liner in it. it no longer is a whippet, flagship, game bird, 100, etc, as the blocking and flange that gave that hat it's name is removed completely.

Ever hat I've seen with this method ends up looking the same. No vintage look at all. I have tried saying to just go the custom route because at the end of the day they are hats, yes. But destroying things that others seek for days/weeks/years (especially ones that are NOT being produced anymore and carry hat history), just to say you have another hat to your hat group is ridiculous.

One more time, you don't have a hat you've hunted for, you have a custom hat wearing another hats name. That hat is only named after a vintage model by the felt it is made from. that's it.

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Thanks, Justin. I think the best way is for passionate and knowledgeable collectors such as yourself and Mark to stay and guide new members. I think more participation rather than less is better. I think fewer hats will be altered if members are providing such compelling and reasoned perspectives. Otherwise the hats will continue to get altered, probably more of them, but the members just won’t be aware of it. Just my two cents.


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[LuvMyMan]

Is there a way to drop threads one starts?
I am done.........I want to remove all my threads.......
Tired of people buying hats that don't fit and then ruining them forever. I like the history I thought I found here.......but as Jack has said it IS just a fashion show with people who don't give a damb............and just want to aquire, or sell for as much as they can, to other people who don't give a damb either...............
M

Hello. I would think so dearly that at times you know as I do, we have a great group of friends here, so please never allow a few things to make you feel badly. I sure do understand how you view some of the points you surface. Vintage is a dear thing, and is one of the main factors of why most of us are even here. That link to the past. We do not live in a world today that holds true and honorable as we did awhile ago in time...but it is up to all of us to hold on to that and relish it as much as possible to give a new life now, to once was. Bless us all.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I got the distillery comment as well as most others you make, taking half a page to make a simple comment. That's a personal attack. I didn't make a personal attack earlier, there's a enough of what I said to cover quite a group.

I know who you were referencing in your cheerleading comments, everyone does. Much of the lamenting has gone on privately because many have just decided to step away or discuss it privately while hoping the lounge will move in a different direction. I've got my doubts.

You're right, I don't have to read posts. What I do have to do is scroll through the ones I don't want to read to find the hidden gem.

Yes, I happen to own a few hats that others find interesting. I appreciate their oohs and aahs. I always try to remember to say thanks. My arguments are not what's strange, it the density of those that fail to get them.

Yes, we've all made silly innocuous remarks on threads but I like to think of them as the exception instead of the rule as some here do.

Brent, I know very well how to ignore someone on this site, but thank you for pointing that out. Your childishness is exceeded only by your overwhelming compunction to post.

Greg,

I just don’t agree with you. I too receive PMs supporting me and lamenting the whining of members. I’ve received several messages of support. All it means is that there are two sides. It’s alright for their to be disagreement. There also doesn’t have to be a right and a wrong; just different preferences.

I hope that the name calling is over and that we have not abandoned all gentlemanly comportment. As for my “overwhelming compunction” to post...be careful about taking about things you know nothing about. I won’t speculate on why I think you need to confront me although I have my suspicions.


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[Mustang Mike's Hats]

Howdy everyone...wow as I love all of you fine gentlemen, I thought it time for me to say this is a great place...the Lounge is the best and as this time of year we should all be reflecting upon what makes this place the best place to be.

Yep. I'm with the lady on this one.. I've gotten a LOT out of this forum and I'm sure I will continue to do so. I can always ignore any threads that seem irrelevant, or whatever. The VAST majority of this forum has been a blessing on a several levels.

(Heck, I'm even learning about vintage suits and stuff!)

 

[Rick Blaine]

Yeah... I threw in the towel when I came here trying to sell some hats to pay off vet bills and some illiterate moron took it to mean I was soliciting donations! What an idiot! It bounced back and forth and mercifully some barkeep took it down.

I'll buy your hats, I will sell you my hats, but I am finished seeing this as a social venue or source of enlightenment. Very sad.

 

[Bamaboots]

No surprise that we disagree. Having a hard time finding where I called someone a name, though.

As for my “overwhelming compunction” to post...be careful about taking about things you know nothing about.

First of all, you have no idea what I may know about.

I won’t speculate on why I think you need to confront me although I have my suspicions.

I didn't have a "need" to confront you. I posted a response to you because I feel you are wrong.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

No surprise that we disagree. Having a hard time finding where I called someone a name, though.



First of all, you have no idea what I may know about.



I didn't have a "need" to confront you. I posted a response to you because I feel you are wrong.

And I feel you’re wrong. That’s life: you don’t always get things your way or end up convincing the other side, or at least that’s been my experience.

As for “need,” I see this is devolving into semantics. I’ve had my say. Ive heard yours. I’m not moved by your position and I suspect (I don’t want to assume to know your mind) you are not moved by mine. Perhaps we can at least agree to let this end as it is not serving any purpose.


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[Bamaboots]

And I feel you’re wrong. That’s life: you don’t always get things your way or end up convincing the other side, or at least that’s been my experience.

As for “need,” I see this is devolving into semantics. I’ve had my say. Ive heard yours. I’m not moved by your position and I suspect (I don’t want to assume to know your mind) you are not moved by mine. Perhaps we can at least agree to let this end as it is not serving any purpose.


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Just can't help yourself, can you?

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Just can't help yourself, can you?

Pot. Kettle.


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[deadlyhandsome]

Pot. Kettle.

And now ignored.

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[Rmccamey]

I'm over 60 years old but very new to the Lounge. I have been around hats all my life but am only just now learning about them through the great threads, old and new. This seems to be a great group however much or little each individual posts. I like seeing hats, both old and new, to give me ideas on what vintage hats I might want to pursue and what custom hats I might want to create. So, to me, it seems to be a good mix of conversations. Yes, there will be disagreements but ultimately nobody else can control what another person does. As much discussion as there is about who changes a hat and by how much and how much is too much is academic. What the owner of the hat does with a hat is completely within their control.

I don't like seeing vintage items discarded or destroyed or seriously altered, but it is all a matter of degree. I helped a friend restore a 1930 Model A. Did he use 1930 wiring or window glass or tires or spark plugs or paint? No. Even some of the sheet metal had to be reproduced. Do I consider the car "vintage" and "period correct"? Yes. Had he not used modern components, the car would have been neither safe nor road-worthy. As it is, it is a fine restoration that is safe, useful, and something that many others can ooh and ahh over for years to come and something others can use to learn about how cars "used to be". Had he not done some modifications, the car (think "hat") would have sat in his garage (think "closet") for the rest of his life; a rusty junk heap of no use to anyone. To me, that would have been the greatest tragedy. Your degree of change or modification may be different than mine, that just means we are different...and human.

Enjoy your hats, ladies and gentlemen. I am enjoying mine and, based on your discussions and pictures, I'm enjoying yours too! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Daniele Tanto]

Is there a way to drop threads one starts?
I am done.........I want to remove all my threads.......
Tired of people buying hats that don't fit and then ruining them forever. I like the history I thought I found here.......but as Jack has said it IS just a fashion show with people who don't give a damb............and just want to aquire, or sell for as much as they can, to other people who don't give a damb either...............
M

I am very amazed and saddened that the barter initiative proposed by M. Hatman was born dead. It is a defeat for all those who patiently collect hats, even not their size, for the sake of collecting and trade. Often, presenting the Italian or French hats, I have, with great discretion, said that it was possible to exchange them or buy them. The answers were rare and someone exchanged me for a shopkeeper with the claim of having colors and sizes out of what was posted. I am one of the very rare Europeans with Stefan (Holland) who continually shows hats, tells the story and tries to give real information and documented on Italian and French production. There is Steve (Baltimore), who has built his stunning collection, with hats built in Central Europe and related technical, marketing and costume news, making travels in what remains of that tradition and Italian to have even more quality in his research. I have always made available my knowledge and, for those who wanted, the hats I had to sell or exchange. In this year I got slightly tired and nervous because of Fedora Lounge. I want to stay out of personal quarrels by choice and linguistic difficulties, but I tell you my thoughts about it. In the last two years, the movement "I've got it, not you" has been generated with the emergence of opinion leaders out of nowhere who have greatly exalted their purchases, disguised as "discoveries", creating a sort of casket for the Holy Grail of the hats in which the novices have fallen and some gullible. At the same time the exaltation of the solitary hatmaker was born and grew. The one who does everything by hand, forgetting that the machines helped to build wonderful hats. At this point many have become "hat designers" giving indications of the proportions, of how to treat the felt, of the combination of colors with ridiculous results. All this seasoned by a plethora of useless and aimless comments, but suitable to have the likes necessary to feel important. The latest fashion is to overturn hats to get the name or brand in "Holy Grail" hats, which have nothing more original. I ask you how many hats I would have if I had done all these operations to be the coolest Fedora lounge, section hats? I do not want answers. I already know them, but a bit of healthy realism and less recreational circle would do well for everyone. I invite the author of the original post to continue his work of trade and all those who want to participate will come forward
"Chi ha capito, ha capito, gli altri seguiranno"

 

[Bamaboots]

@Daniele Tanto, thank you, sir. Well said.

 

[itsallgood]

Anything begun by man begins with innovators, is nurtured by aficionados, and developed by visionaries before going mainstream. Given the number of ads now appearing, I suspect someone is hoping The Fedora Lounge goes mainstream. The more mainstream it goes, the more diluted authentic appreciation will be. As my Dad used to say, "That's progress."

 

[Air Wing Marine]

What about that pile of hats?

 

[M Hatman]

I don't like seeing vintage items discarded or destroyed or seriously altered, but it is all a matter of degree. I helped a friend restore a 1930 Model A. Did he use 1930 wiring or window glass or tires or spark plugs or paint? No. Even some of the sheet metal had to be reproduced. Do I consider the car "vintage" and "period correct"? Yes. Had he not used modern components, the car would have been neither safe nor road-worthy. As it is, it is a fine restoration that is safe, useful, and something that many others can ooh and ahh over for years to come and something others can use to learn about how cars "used to be". Had he not done some modifications, the car (think "hat") would have sat in his garage (think "closet") for the rest of his life; a rusty junk heap of no use to anyone. To me, that would have been the greatest tragedy. Your degree of change or modification may be different than mine, that just means we are different...and human.

I am replying one LAST time on this subject.

This Quote is just a representative of the Car analogy that is NOT really applicable, and I DO know the OP seems to want to preserve history...............


The comparison of hats to cars is NOT even close to a good comparison, and at the most is ridiculous in its presentation if not a downright false representation.


1. There are NO safety issues in wearing a hat……..

2. You are NOT shrinking or stretching a car!!!

3. If a scarce vintage hat is not your size, it will not, it DOES not, have to sit in your closet (or garage) unloved….. as OTHERS who DO WEAR THAT SIZE would be VERY HAPPY to buy it from you or trade you for it!!!!! (Right here on the lounge too!!!!!)

3. AND finally when done, a PROPER auto restoration (even WITH some modern parts), the car STILL LOOKS and acts, like the model it represents and is the SAME PROPORTION as if it came off the assembly line. You have not made it look like another car (or no other car for that matter) (think Hat). HOWEVER: Re-blocking, re-flanging, and shrinking or stretching hats will NOT leave it looking like it did from the factory, not even close. UNLESS you use EXACTLY the same crown and flange blocks as originally used, AND it ends up with the SAME crown and brim dimensions as are particular to that model hat as well as the linings and trim. Same with re-sizing many vintage clothes………..(Think George Washington Suit).


Now, upon popular demand, using the car analogy (and I am not talking about just the quoted poster as he was NOT the only one using the "Car" analogy), how bout THIS:


You start with a 1932 Lincoln KA 3 window sedan. You have wanted one for a while….it is a SCARCE CAR…..it is 95% plus original…..this IS A DESIRABLE CAR, a GRAIL car if you wish (THINK HAT). Now you buy it (when others could, others who have been searching for this car for a long time) because you want a 1932 Lincoln and just because you can.


But you have a different idea about your cars, because THEN you cut it down 6 to 8 feet removing the rear passenger area making it a coupe (as you have done with 5 other old scarce classic cars, (THINK HATS). Then you take off the running boards because they no longer fit and you don’t like them anyway, you put in a XM Radio with speakers, you put in a new drive train with power steering and modern brakes, you replace the spoke wheels with modern wheels and tires, and lastly you replace the engine with a 1980’s mercury 400.


AND NOW


It looks exactly like the 4 other sedans, same proportions, same appearance, etc. (THINK HATS) from the 30’s through the 60’s you did this to. BUT you DID leave on the original greyhound radiator cap and left the 1930’s Ford/Lincoln emblems in the otherwise altered car. SO…………….do you still own a scarce classic 1932 Lincoln 3 window sedan?????? (Think HAT)!!!!!!!! NO, UNEQUIVOCALLY, NO, you no more now own a 1932 KA Lincoln 3 window sedan, any more that the other 4 “restorations” equal owning those sedans, all that was managed to be done was the destruction of those cars forever. They are now ALL “Rat Rods” at the most polite description………(Think Hats). Would it not have been best in all 5 cases to just have a custom car (hat) made?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? (And less expensive too….)


Now if you do this with the same car in say 50% or less original condition or a “Basket Case”…more power to you!!! I applaud, good job done!!! Such a car (hat), would probably go unloved by many, many people. Now I don’t recommend this IF the “Basket Case” is one of the only 5 known examples produced….THEN it really needs to go to a conservator!!!!!


I LOVE seeing others discoveries (especially when they detail items and the labels as well as discuss the history of the product and manufacturer). While I would love to own some of them, I would NEVER alter them to fit me….as I have not altered my “trade pile” which does contain hats I otherwise would LOVE to keep IF they were my size!!!! There is in particular my 40’s Whippet (which I am keeping for a while anyway), Marathon whippet clone and the 50’s “Game Bird” I do not otherwise own and example of that I dearly wish were my size. That Stetson 50's royal Deluxe with the Bock Pleat is making me cry too.... that it is not in my size....


People like Daniele (who IS my size but does not like the “Massive” hat style that I do) as well as Stefan and Steve who wear smaller sizes but likewise do not wish to destroy the integrity of an all too scarce 50 year old plus hat…..share their finds with willing buyer/traders (Think Me) and LOVE the History they discover and likewise share (like me).


As Daniele SO eloquently posted, this “I have it, you do not” mentality really has to be re-thought!! The “anything at any cost mentality” needs to stop! Lets show some patience in our desires for “THAT” vintage item in our actual size and rejoice when others find theirs!! All of us PLEASE share the history, share the “finds”, and preserve for others beyond our lifespan, items no longer being made!!! Lets PLEASE stop destroying history forever!!!!

I KNOW many will think in this reply and my "I am out" post, I am talking about JUST HATS and JUST Doc in particular (he now knows I am not I think, as we have been messaging), BUT I am talking about MUCH MORE, I am talking about the creeping trend to alter and destroy history....all over actually and not just here on the lounge.......just because they (we) can. We will loose (and already have lost much of) the physical abilities, the knowledge to craft, to use our hands and tools, to make a positive impact on the world around us. Without our history, and the knowledge from it, we will repeat over and over the errors, fail to encourage the good, and NEVER be able to appreciate who we are and why we are....we WILL be lost, and in many ways are lost already.


For the rest of us…Lets at least TRY to help educate the new enthusiasts…..I will, BUT, will be much more infrequent. I will add to my ephemera threads from time to time AND will lurk in the background the rest.

Thank you to those who have given me support and friendship here on the lounge, and I apologize to EVERYONE for some of the FIRE created by this thread...I MAY present another post of my trade hats.......but do not wish to further post on THIS thread....


Best,

M


PS Someone posted me about the Marathon Whippet Clone, IT is reserved for Stuer (Stefan) for when he finds that perfect trade hat for me....I am nothing if I am not patient!! One HAS to be in my size range... AND If anyone has a cool 7 1/2 LO or 7 5/8 hat to sell reasonably or trade feel free to PM me. Just give me some time....I NEVER WAS one of those who check in every day.

 

[splintercellsz]

^mic drop

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[drmaxtejeda]

I am replying one LAST time on this subject.

This Quote is just a representative of the Car analogy that is NOT really applicable, and I DO know the OP seems to want to preserve history...............


The comparison of hats to cars is NOT even close to a good comparison, and at the most is ridiculous in its presentation if not a downright false representation.


1. There are NO safety issues in wearing a hat……..

2. You are NOT shrinking or stretching a car!!!

3. If a scarce vintage hat is not your size, it will not, it DOES not, have to sit in your closet (or garage) unloved….. as OTHERS who DO WEAR THAT SIZE would be VERY HAPPY to buy it from you or trade you for it!!!!! (Right here on the lounge too!!!!!)

3. AND finally when done, a PROPER auto restoration (even WITH some modern parts), the car STILL LOOKS and acts, like the model it represents and is the SAME PROPORTION as if it came off the assembly line. You have not made it look like another car (or no other car for that matter) (think Hat). HOWEVER: Re-blocking, re-flanging, and shrinking or stretching hats will NOT leave it looking like it did from the factory, not even close. UNLESS you use EXACTLY the same crown and flange blocks as originally used, AND it ends up with the SAME crown and brim dimensions as are particular to that model hat as well as the linings and trim. Same with re-sizing many vintage clothes………..(Think George Washington Suit).


Now, upon popular demand, using the car analogy (and I am not talking about just the quoted poster as he was NOT the only one using the "Car" analogy), how bout THIS:


You start with a 1932 Lincoln KA 3 window sedan. You have wanted one for a while….it is a SCARCE CAR…..it is 95% plus original…..this IS A DESIRABLE CAR, a GRAIL car if you wish (THINK HAT). Now you buy it (when others could, others who have been searching for this car for a long time) because you want a 1932 Lincoln and just because you can.


But you have a different idea about your cars, because THEN you cut it down 6 to 8 feet removing the rear passenger area making it a coupe (as you have done with 5 other old scarce classic cars, (THINK HATS). Then you take off the running boards because they no longer fit and you don’t like them anyway, you put in a XM Radio with speakers, you put in a new drive train with power steering and modern brakes, you replace the spoke wheels with modern wheels and tires, and lastly you replace the engine with a 1980’s mercury 400.


AND NOW


It looks exactly like the 4 other sedans, same proportions, same appearance, etc. (THINK HATS) from the 30’s through the 60’s you did this to. BUT you DID leave on the original greyhound radiator cap and left the 1930’s Ford/Lincoln emblems in the otherwise altered car. SO…………….do you still own a scarce classic 1932 Lincoln 3 window sedan?????? (Think HAT)!!!!!!!! NO, UNEQUIVOCALLY, NO, you no more now own a 1932 KA Lincoln 3 window sedan, any more that the other 4 “restorations” equal owning those sedans, all that was managed to be done was the destruction of those cars forever. They are now ALL “Rat Rods” at the most polite description………(Think Hats). Would it not have been best in all 5 cases to just have a custom car (hat) made?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? (And less expensive too….)


Now if you do this with the same car in say 50% or less original condition or a “Basket Case”…more power to you!!! I applaud, good job done!!! Such a car (hat), would probably go unloved by many, many people. Now I don’t recommend this IF the “Basket Case” is one of the only 5 known examples produced….THEN it really needs to go to a conservator!!!!!


I LOVE seeing others discoveries (especially when they detail items and the labels as well as discuss the history of the product and manufacturer). While I would love to own some of them, I would NEVER alter them to fit me….as I have not altered my “trade pile” which does contain hats I otherwise would LOVE to keep IF they were my size!!!! There is in particular my 40’s Whippet (which I am keeping for a while anyway), Marathon whippet clone and the 50’s “Game Bird” I do not otherwise own and example of that I dearly wish were my size. That Stetson 50's royal Deluxe with the Bock Pleat is making me cry too.... that it is not in my size....


People like Daniele (who IS my size but does not like the “Massive” hat style that I do) as well as Stefan and Steve who wear smaller sizes but likewise do not wish to destroy the integrity of an all too scarce 50 year old plus hat…..share their finds with willing buyer/traders (Think Me) and LOVE the History they discover and likewise share (like me).


As Daniele SO eloquently posted, this “I have it, you do not” mentality really has to be re-thought!! The “anything at any cost mentality” needs to stop! Lets show some patience in our desires for “THAT” vintage item in our actual size and rejoice when others find theirs!! All of us PLEASE share the history, share the “finds”, and preserve for others beyond our lifespan, items no longer being made!!! Lets PLEASE stop destroying history forever!!!!

I KNOW many will think in this reply and my "I am out" post, I am talking about JUST HATS and JUST Doc in particular (he now knows I am not I think, as we have been messaging), BUT I am talking about MUCH MORE, I am talking about the creeping trend to alter and destroy history....all over actually and not just here on the lounge.......just because they (we) can. We will loose (and already have lost much of) the physical abilities, the knowledge to craft, to use our hands and tools, to make a positive impact on the world around us. Without our history, and the knowledge from it, we will repeat over and over the errors, fail to encourage the good, and NEVER be able to appreciate who we are and why we are....we WILL be lost, and in many ways are lost already.


For the rest of us…Lets at least TRY to help educate the new enthusiasts…..I will, BUT, will be much more infrequent. I will add to my ephemera threads from time to time AND will lurk in the background the rest.

Thank you to those who have given me support and friendship here on the lounge, and I apologize to EVERYONE for some of the FIRE created by this thread...I MAY present another post of my trade hats.......but do not wish to further post on THIS thread....


Best,

M


PS Someone posted me about the Marathon Whippet Clone, IT is reserved for Stuer (Stefan) for when he finds that perfect trade hat for me....I am nothing if I am not patient!! One HAS to be in my size range... AND If anyone has a cool 7 1/2 LO or 7 5/8 hat to sell reasonably or trade feel free to PM me. Just give me some time....I NEVER WAS one of those who check in every day.

I was much gladdened by your PM, Mark! Thank you!
And, besides, you have convinced me. You are right, and I was wrong.
As I said, I feel satisfied with my collection now, and I am much less hungry. If I buy a hat that is not my size, I will not alter it again. I will wait to trade it, or I will keep it as is.
So there! Peace?

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[LuvMyMan]

I'm over 60 years old but very new to the Lounge. I have been around hats all my life but am only just now learning about them through the great threads, old and new. This seems to be a great group however much or little each individual posts. I like seeing hats, both old and new, to give me ideas on what vintage hats I might want to pursue and what custom hats I might want to create. So, to me, it seems to be a good mix of conversations. Yes, there will be disagreements but ultimately nobody else can control what another person does. As much discussion as there is about who changes a hat and by how much and how much is too much is academic. What the owner of the hat does with a hat is completely within their control.

I don't like seeing vintage items discarded or destroyed or seriously altered, but it is all a matter of degree. I helped a friend restore a 1930 Model A. Did he use 1930 wiring or window glass or tires or spark plugs or paint? No. Even some of the sheet metal had to be reproduced. Do I consider the car "vintage" and "period correct"? Yes. Had he not used modern components, the car would have been neither safe nor road-worthy. As it is, it is a fine restoration that is safe, useful, and something that many others can ooh and ahh over for years to come and something others can use to learn about how cars "used to be". Had he not done some modifications, the car (think "hat") would have sat in his garage (think "closet") for the rest of his life; a rusty junk heap of no use to anyone. To me, that would have been the greatest tragedy. Your degree of change or modification may be different than mine, that just means we are different...and human.

Enjoy your hats, ladies and gentlemen. I am enjoying mine and, based on your discussions and pictures, I'm enjoying yours too! Thanks for sharing.

I agree.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Yeah... I threw in the towel when I came here trying to sell some hats to pay off vet bills and some illiterate moron took it to mean I was soliciting donations! What an idiot! It bounced back and forth and mercifully some barkeep took it down.

I'll buy your hats, I will sell you my hats, but I am finished seeing this as a social venue or source of enlightenment. Very sad.

I recall this taking place. I was not aware however of the final outcome. You have always been viewed by me, and my late Husband, as being a stand up guy and being a good person, a gentlemen while on the Lounge.