My first Aero -- is it a keeper?

[JMax]

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Hi everyone. Alan here...I hope a brief response here doesn't violate any forum rules. I have been in touch with Gamma68 about his jacket and I fully appreciate the comments/concerns/frustrations many of you have voiced here. I will keep this short and say that we accept full responsibility for the work that was done to his jacket, and agree that it is completely unacceptable. It should never have been shipped out to him in this condition. For those of you that know our work, or me personally, know that we work incredibly hard to get things done right. In this instance we failed to do so, and I have reached out to Gamma68 and proposed compensating him for the inconvenience. I won't go into details about this (Gamma68 can provide those details if he chooses), but I will say that we will do everything possible to rectify the situation.

I appreciate the open dialogue and would welcome any questions and do everything possible to address any concerns.

Thanks.

No better reply could be asked. Class act, Alan at JL. Kudos.
B

 

[Fonzie]

And that’s all it was needed here: The opportunity to explain themselves privately with the person that suffered the wrong doing.
All other opinions from members not involved personally in this issue was rushed and ill informed until both sides of the story were heard.
I really hope that Gamma will find a satisfactory resolution to this unfortunate event and that JL will repair the damage to its reputation.
I haven’t got personal experience with Johnson’s leather but I do firmly believe that they have a right to share their side of the story before being judged and sentenced publicly.
Let’s keep TFL respectful, it’s better for everyone.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Now that is how you handle a situation like this. Class act.

 

[Logician]

Amen. Nothing golden age equated to even half the weight and thickness of CXL. And never with a #5 zip. I love the look. But the performance isn't there. My j106 broke every single pull.

What's wrong with a #5 zipper as the main zipper on a FQHH leather jacket? Please enlighten me. I've just received a LW Brown HH Test 4.5 oz (brass hardware) and Stuart put a Talon #5 zipper (NOS 1940's). Last year I ordered a black one (with nickel hardware) and Stuart put a #5 C&C (Crown). Stuart must know what he's doing. If NOS #5 zippers (Talon, Crown, etc.) are failure-prone (for a HH jacket), why would he risk it unless there is a big payoff for him? But what's the payoff in losing customers and reputation?

 

[ton312]

What's wrong with a #5 zipper as the main zipper on a FQHH leather jacket? Please enlighten me. I've just received a LW Brown HH Test 4.5 oz (brass hardware) and Stuart put a Talon #5 zipper (NOS 1940's). Last year I ordered a black one (with nickel hardware) and Stuart put a #5 C&C (Crown). Stuart must know what he's doing. If NOS #5 zippers (Talon, Crown, etc.) are failure-prone (for a HH jacket), why would he risk it unless there is a big payoff for him? But what's the payoff in losing customers and reputation?

Nothing wrong at all but in my experience the failure rate is significantly higher on the smaller zips over time. I replaced 3 on my 4oz j106. I had Stu throw a 10 on my j23. Looked good and functioned without fail.

 

[Guppy]

What's wrong with a #5 zipper as the main zipper on a FQHH leather jacket? Please enlighten me. I've just received a LW Brown HH Test 4.5 oz (brass hardware) and Stuart put a Talon #5 zipper (NOS 1940's). Last year I ordered a black one (with nickel hardware) and Stuart put a #5 C&C (Crown). Stuart must know what he's doing. If NOS #5 zippers (Talon, Crown, etc.) are failure-prone (for a HH jacket), why would he risk it unless there is a big payoff for him? But what's the payoff in losing customers and reputation?

Experience in the field can vary widely, depending on many factors. How often do you wear the jacket? How often do you work the zipper? How do you move in the jacket when wearing it?

I can't speak for everyone. But in my experience, I've had 2 Aero jackets made from heavyweight CXL (FQHH and Steer) that had problems with the zipper. In both cases, the bottom of the zipper tape wasn't properly sewn into the jacket, and pulled out. It wasn't a matter of the mechanical parts of the zipper failing. In both cases, Aero repaired the zipper without replacing it, at no cost to me, and the repairs have held up. I'm happy with the jackets, and the service.

Even so, I still think that a #8 or #10 zipper would be a better choice for such heavy weight leather.

Why?

I can't speak for LW, but Aero claim to use #5 zippers because they're the most historically accurate for their styles. But, the historic styles they base their jackets off of typically were made from lighter weight leather than what Aero use for their heavy leather. If they up the weight of the leather, I feel they should up the weight of the zipper. That's just my opinion, and Aero haven't gone out of business yet, so they may be right, but it's still my opinion.

What's more, on motorcycle jackets, a heavier zipper is not historically inaccurate. I've seen numerous vintage biker jackets that had big, beefy main zips. So for MC jackets, at least, the historical accuracy argument holds less weight for me. But in general, I feel that function is more important than accuracy for me, if I want something I can wear everyday, and not worry about it. If you want period accurate replica clothing for some reason, then sure go with the original zipper size, but probably you should stick with their lighter weight leathers which are more historically accurate as well.

Another aspect of the zipper size isn't just the strength, it's how easy they are to use. I wish I had the proper vocabulary to explain this easily, but I've noticed after looking at many, many jackets closely, that installation varies. Some makers, the teeth are almost hidden inside the leather, while others expose the teeth and even the tape more. The more exposed, the easier it is to get the pin inserted into the puller, and get the zipper started. The more hidden, the harder it is, and the more strain is placed on the zipper, particularly at the bottom of the zip when starting the zipper, when the two halves are joined.

With Aero jackets, they tend to hide the teeth much more than many makers. The effect of this is a cleaner looking jacket, I suppose, although whether people prefer one look or another is a subjective matter. What's not subjective is the ease of operation. Most zippered jackets I've owned, I can get the pin inserted and start the zipper by feel, with little to no difficulty, usually on the first try. With many of my Aero jackets, it's much more difficult, and I can't do it by feel reliably. I have to hunch over, fold the bottom of the jacket upward towards myself, so I can see what I'm doing, and even then it can take a good bit of effort to get the leather surrounding the zipper to part enough so that I can get the two halves to mate. This puts stress on the bottom of the zipper. It can take me a good minute or two, and it looks awkward when I do it. It's not a big deal if I'm at home, but when I'm out and saying goodbye to people, it can become pretty embarrassing as I struggle with it for what seems like a long time. I usually end up either skipping zipping, or wait until I'm by myself and then do it privately so as to avoid the embarrassment.

A more exposed installation method or a larger zipper will alleviate this problem entirely. So it's my preference to go with a larger zip. I'm sure the larger the zipper, the longer it will hold up, and the more abuse it will shrug off. A #5 might mechanically hold up OK in many cases, and if people who have them don't have a problem with them, who am I to say that they're wrong. But I still prefer a beefier zip, particularly on heavier, stiffer jackets, and where the zipper is installed with leather right up to the edge of the teeth.

 

[navetsea]

I think (guess) the culprit is on the zipper tape material, cotton zipper tape might be truer for period correctness and will look aged in color overtime etc, but prone to fraying more than synthetic tape fabrics, and the bottom pin part of the tape in modern zipper that part of the tape is either laminated or infused with some kind of plastic to make it rigid making for smoother and sturdier and less failure on the zipper box operation.

 

[ton312]

In my experience it was the pulls themselves that snapped. Like a dried out chicken bone against that dreadnought CXL

 

[navetsea]

you're just too strong for your zipper pull Ton... I don't even manage to stretch out a #5 paper clip style puller

 

[Logician]

In my experience it was the pulls themselves that snapped. Like a dried out chicken bone against that dreadnought CXL

I must say that IMO the main zipper pull on my brown Test (Talon #5) seems quite small (as compared with my other zipper pulls on similar jackets) and somewhat fragile, for lack of another word. But I am no expert. My other LW Suburbans (3) have either a Scovill #10 main zipper with a paperclip type pull (brown and green Suburban) or a Talon #10 with a long pull on my black Suburban (all are brass btw). So a brass Talon #5 as the main zipper on a HH jacket is a first for me. The pull on my black Test (nickel C&C) is longer and seems more robust than the Talon #5. Anyway, perhaps one moral of the story is that one has to be extra careful while zipping a HH jacket up with a #5 zipper. Perhaps it would also be more prudent to keep the zipper well lubricated on a regular basis, so as to put less stress on the pull. We don't tend to think much about these things (zipper size, type of pull, etc.) when ordering a heavy leather jacket. I certainly did not (I just asked for a Talon). But maybe we should pay more attention to them. Thanks to Guppy for his lengthy reply.

 

[willyto]

The best solution is to stop ordering and wearing such heavy leather

 

[Guppy]

The best solution is to stop ordering and wearing such heavy leather

Oh that will never do.

 

[Dr H]

The best solution is to stop ordering and wearing such heavy leather

Or use buttons...my solution every time.

Personally, I never go for anything heavier than a medium weight horsehide in any case so this isn’t generally an issue.

In terms of the metallurgy though, nickel has a higher yield strength than brass (almost double), but quality of casting, corrosion, cross sectional area are all going to be factors to influence how it yields.

 

[Logician]

Experience in the field can vary widely, depending on many factors. How often do you wear the jacket? How often do you work the zipper? How do you move in the jacket when wearing it?

I can't speak for everyone. But in my experience, I've had 2 Aero jackets made from heavyweight CXL (FQHH and Steer) that had problems with the zipper. In both cases, the bottom of the zipper tape wasn't properly sewn into the jacket, and pulled out. It wasn't a matter of the mechanical parts of the zipper failing. In both cases, Aero repaired the zipper without replacing it, at no cost to me, and the repairs have held up. I'm happy with the jackets, and the service.

Even so, I still think that a #8 or #10 zipper would be a better choice for such heavy weight leather.

Why?

I can't speak for LW, but Aero claim to use #5 zippers because they're the most historically accurate for their styles. But, the historic styles they base their jackets off of typically were made from lighter weight leather than what Aero use for their heavy leather. If they up the weight of the leather, I feel they should up the weight of the zipper. That's just my opinion, and Aero haven't gone out of business yet, so they may be right, but it's still my opinion.

What's more, on motorcycle jackets, a heavier zipper is not historically inaccurate. I've seen numerous vintage biker jackets that had big, beefy main zips. So for MC jackets, at least, the historical accuracy argument holds less weight for me. But in general, I feel that function is more important than accuracy for me, if I want something I can wear everyday, and not worry about it. If you want period accurate replica clothing for some reason, then sure go with the original zipper size, but probably you should stick with their lighter weight leathers which are more historically accurate as well.

Another aspect of the zipper size isn't just the strength, it's how easy they are to use. I wish I had the proper vocabulary to explain this easily, but I've noticed after looking at many, many jackets closely, that installation varies. Some makers, the teeth are almost hidden inside the leather, while others expose the teeth and even the tape more. The more exposed, the easier it is to get the pin inserted into the puller, and get the zipper started. The more hidden, the harder it is, and the more strain is placed on the zipper, particularly at the bottom of the zip when starting the zipper, when the two halves are joined.

With Aero jackets, they tend to hide the teeth much more than many makers. The effect of this is a cleaner looking jacket, I suppose, although whether people prefer one look or another is a subjective matter. What's not subjective is the ease of operation. Most zippered jackets I've owned, I can get the pin inserted and start the zipper by feel, with little to no difficulty, usually on the first try. With many of my Aero jackets, it's much more difficult, and I can't do it by feel reliably. I have to hunch over, fold the bottom of the jacket upward towards myself, so I can see what I'm doing, and even then it can take a good bit of effort to get the leather surrounding the zipper to part enough so that I can get the two halves to mate. This puts stress on the bottom of the zipper. It can take me a good minute or two, and it looks awkward when I do it. It's not a big deal if I'm at home, but when I'm out and saying goodbye to people, it can become pretty embarrassing as I struggle with it for what seems like a long time. I usually end up either skipping zipping, or wait until I'm by myself and then do it privately so as to avoid the embarrassment.

A more exposed installation method or a larger zipper will alleviate this problem entirely. So it's my preference to go with a larger zip. I'm sure the larger the zipper, the longer it will hold up, and the more abuse it will shrug off. A #5 might mechanically hold up OK in many cases, and if people who have them don't have a problem with them, who am I to say that they're wrong. But I still prefer a beefier zip, particularly on heavier, stiffer jackets, and where the zipper is installed with leather right up to the edge of the teeth.

Thanks Guppy for his lengthy reply. I certainly agree with most of what you have written.

 

[Gamma68]

UPDATE: I just shared a nice phone call with Alan, who is sincere in his apologies. We discussed some options and came to an agreement that is a fair resolution. It's clear that Alan takes this matter seriously and is willing to do what it takes to make it right.

 

[Monitor]

UPDATE: I just shared a nice phone call with Alan, who is sincere in his apologies. We discussed some options and came to an agreement that is a fair resolution. It's clear that Alan takes this matter seriously and is willing to do what it takes to make it right.

I'm happy to hear that!