Moth Bite Repair (send out)

[Pilot99]

I apologize if this has been addressed before, I have trolled the forums and found different posts on how to repair moth bites. Alas I still very new to fedora's and I am very much unwilling to destroy a hat to try and fix it. I have come in to possession of a Resistol 880 vintage fedora. It is a beautiful looking hat and the interior is very well kept. I received the fedora for free from a friend and it fits amazingly well. The problem is that there are literally close to 20 (maybe more) moth bites on the hat. I would love to salvage and restore this hat...so after this introduction, is there any companies/people you can send out to have repaired. I have bought a fedora before from Optimo in Chicago so I asked them but alas they told me that they do not repair moth bites. Any ideas I would really appreciate it.

 

[Pilot99]

There are many threads on this topic. Here's one -

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=34322&highlight=moth+repair

I appreciate the help, but I have looked at that thread before you posted the link. But what I am asking, which I did not see in that thread, is a place I can send my hat to to be repaired, not repairing it myself because I do not believe I have the necessary knowledge/skill base to confidently fix it.

 

[Lefty]

I don't think that I've heard of a shop that will fix the moth bites. The thread above is for a DIY method that I doubt any hat shop is going to take the time with - especially for the extent of the damage you've described.

 

[Aureliano]

Pilot why don't you call Worth & Worth. They repair, reblock, same stuff as Optimo basically. Maybe they do moth bites, too [huh]

 

[ScottF]

Pilot why don't you call Worth & Worth. They repair, reblock, same stuff as Optimo basically. Maybe they do moth bites, too [huh]

Most hatters will not do many of the needed repair services described here on the lounge, such as: moth bite repair, re-sewing unreeded vintage sweatbands, actually scrubbing the dirt out of a hat.

Example: I can sew an unreeded sweatband back into a vintage hat. I would rather do that than have Optimo replace the sweatband with a new modern one. But I would rather pay a professional to find the right colored thread and do a neat job of it. Sorry, not available. Another example: I can send a hat away for a cleaning and get a much cleaner hat that smells nice and fresh. Or I can scrub it myself (not dip it) and have an even cleaner hat. I would rather pay someone to do the latter for me. Again, sorry - not available.

I think if there was a hatter out there who worked on building a reputation for being the go-to place for EVERYTHING, they would get more business than they could handle. But I do understand that the hatters with the skills to provide such services for vintage hats, would much prefer to build and sell brand-new hats with their own name on them.

If there are any hatters that do offer the repair services I've described, please let us know. Meanwhile, I'm slowly perfecting these things on my own, as I suspect many of us are.

 

[rlk]

Most hatters will not do many of the needed repair services described here on the lounge, such as: moth bite repair, re-sewing unreeded vintage sweatbands, actually scrubbing the dirt out of a hat.

Example: I can sew an unreeded sweatband back into a vintage hat. I would rather do that than have Optimo replace the sweatband with a new modern one. But I would rather pay a professional to find the right colored thread and do a neat job of it. Sorry, not available. Another example: I can send a hat away for a cleaning and get a much cleaner hat that smells nice and fresh. Or I can scrub it myself (not dip it) and have an even cleaner hat. I would rather pay someone to do the latter for me. Again, sorry - not available.

I think if there was a hatter out there who worked on building a reputation for being the go-to place for EVERYTHING, they would get more business than they could handle. But I do understand that the hatters with the skills to provide such services for vintage hats, would much prefer to build and sell brand-new hats with their own name on them.

If there are any hatters that do offer the repair services I've described, please let us know. Meanwhile, I'm slowly perfecting these things on my own, as I suspect many of us are.

While all that sounds great in theory I suspect that the cost to successfully and reliably provide such services would virtually eliminate any actual customers. To do it professionally one has to have the equipment and personnel(with necessary skills) to do the service while being paid. People also expect those repairs to be guaranteed to some extent and don't take kindly to irreparable damage(and so liability protection another problem). Doing it oneself is really the only realistic alternative. How much would people be willing to pay for these services?... and with the possibility of uncertain outcomes.

Also not sure there really is a reliable and lasting "professional" moth bite repair possible.

There are Textile Conservators that work for Museums and Collectors...

 

[ScottF]

While all that sounds great in theory I suspect that the cost to successfully and reliably provide such services would virtually eliminate any actual customers. To do it professionally one has to have the equipment and personnel(with necessary skills) to do the service while being paid. People also expect those repairs to be guaranteed to some extent and don't take kindly to irreparable damage(and so liability protection another problem). Doing it oneself is really the only realistic alternative. How much would people be willing to pay for these services?... and with the possibility of uncertain outcomes.

Also not sure there really is a reliable and lasting "professional" moth bite repair possible.

There are Textile Conservators that work for Museums and Collectors...

The only explanation I buy is that vintage hats just don't have the same value as other vintage items where experts DO provide needed repair services. But I still think that if at least 'elbow grease' cleaning and unreeded sweatband repair were offered (hand-sewing and scrubbing are not difficult skills to find), the lower profit on such work (compared to building new hats and simple trimming) might be more than offset by the additional customers.

 

[rlk]

The only explanation I buy is that vintage hats just don't have the same value as other vintage items where experts DO provide needed repair services. But I still think that if at least 'elbow grease' cleaning and unreeded sweatband repair were offered (hand-sewing and scrubbing are not difficult skills to find), the lower profit on such work (compared to building new hats and simple trimming) might be more than offset by the additional customers.

I agree on the limited skills of those particular services in most cases, but what happens when the felt is damaged by scrubbing(or still not clean enough) or the thread pulls through the felt or tears the sweatband leather--both reasonably likely with vintage materials(especially if one tends to rush...)? If the repair is successful is it sturdy enough to be worn?
If you or I damage our own hat that may be tragic but there aren't any further consequences.

 

[ScottF]

I agree on the limited skills of those particular services in most cases, but what happens when the felt is damaged by scrubbing(or still not clean enough) or the thread pulls through the felt or tears the sweatband leather--both reasonably likely with vintage materials(especially if one tends to rush...)? If the repair is successful is it sturdy enough to be worn?
If you or I damage our own hat that may be tragic but there aren't any further consequences.

That's true with all fragile vintage items that require restoration - not just hats. Yet other items get restored. I doubt the vintage billiard cue market is much larger (if any) than vintage hats, and collectors of cues can be very picky about work (straightness, workmanship,etc), yet any cuemaker worth their salt will repair most antique cues. In my opinion, it's a matter of having a full tool skillset (or full skill toolset?), and the definition of 'hatter' these days simply doesn't include all the skills that it used to. And the reason is probably that vintage hats just aren't worth enough to make the profit from repair offset the profit lost through shoddy work (or finicky hat collectors' requirements). I understand it, I just think there's a need gap that could be filled.

 

[gtdean48]

I recall the hatters replying that to do a proper restoration is the same work equivalent of building a hat from scratch & you can't charge the new hat from scratch price for a restoration. The bearier to entry would be you'd need almost all of the same equipment to do from scratch hat construction as well. Simple business case that points to doing from scratch hat construction over restorations, no MBA needed for this one.
I'd like to have a nearby place just for the "cleaning & blocking" that was common in by-gone days. I don't mind the send out for serious renovation but do agree I'd like a "restoration" option = save what I got instead of rip & replace.

 

[Art Fawcett]

And the reason is probably that vintage hats just aren't worth enough to make the profit from repair offset the profit lost through shoddy work (or finicky hat collectors' requirements). I understand it, I just think there's a need gap that could be filled.

Scott, I don't think you really DO understand. Most vintage hats are worth a max ( and I mean MAX) of $300. To use the example of this hat in question that to repair 20 moth bites would most likely take 10 hours ( at best) , not be able to guarantee that they will be invisible, spend approx $300 in moth bite repair only ( 10 hrs @$30 per.) and still only have a hat worth $85 on the open market. The owner then thinks he got ripped off, is unsatisfied with the end result because it doesn't look absolutely new, and starts badmouthing the hatter doing the work.

Been there, done that, no Thank you. If YOU can make it so that it becomes cost effective I would support your every effort in that direction and would help you with start-up equipment. I will teach you whatever I know that will help so that you can take this task on.

Unless you are willing to do this though, your words sound only like whining. I understand your frustration as I also want what I want at a price I want to pay getting perfect work in a very short time but that isn't reality.

I would not have responded to this thread Scott but your words seem to be directed at me not doing much repair work. I'm sure there are other hatters out there that use their name only but I can't think of any that are active on this board so I'm assuming your barbs are headed this way. RLK has stated a big part of the problem better than I can and I would ask you to try to step into my ( or any other hatters) shoes to see what we contend with as far as requests and demands. There is a reason I chose my signature line.

 

[mayserwegener]

Back in the day did they repair moth damage? I haven't seen any signs of it happening on my hats. I can see blocking, new liners, new ribbons, new sweat bands but not moth repair.

 

[Art Fawcett]

The short answer is yes, I have seen hats that , unless you take them apart, you would never know were repaired. I haven't attained that skill level but I've seen where others did. Even back then though, it wasn't common to spend more on a repair than the hat was worth.

 

[rlk]

I've had bits of felt from old(don't know if they qualify for vintage) repairs fall off when brushing the dust off newly acquired vintage hats on a few occasions, at least twice leaving a small hole exposed.

 

[ScottF]

Scott, I don't think you really DO understand. Most vintage hats are worth a max ( and I mean MAX) of $300. To use the example of this hat in question that to repair 20 moth bites would most likely take 10 hours ( at best) , not be able to guarantee that they will be invisible, spend approx $300 in moth bite repair only ( 10 hrs @$30 per.) and still only have a hat worth $85 on the open market. The owner then thinks he got ripped off, is unsatisfied with the end result because it doesn't look absolutely new, and starts badmouthing the hatter doing the work.

Been there, done that, no Thank you. If YOU can make it so that it becomes cost effective I would support your every effort in that direction and would help you with start-up equipment. I will teach you whatever I know that will help so that you can take this task on.

Unless you are willing to do this though, your words sound only like whining. I understand your frustration as I also want what I want at a price I want to pay getting perfect work in a very short time but that isn't reality.

I would not have responded to this thread Scott but your words seem to be directed at me not doing much repair work. I'm sure there are other hatters out there that use their name only but I can't think of any that are active on this board so I'm assuming your barbs are headed this way. RLK has stated a big part of the problem better than I can and I would ask you to try to step into my ( or any other hatters) shoes to see what we contend with as far as requests and demands. There is a reason I chose my signature line.

First of all, please don't think this was aimed at you. I had not thought of you in terms of hat repair, and haven't had any work done by you, so this was written completely without you in mind.

I had images and 'conversations' of Optimo in mind part of the time, but I also didn't want to sound negative about the services they DO supply, which are extremely valuable - I can't do a pencil curl or block a Panama, for instance, and really appreciate those (and other) services. On the other hand, while I now can repair unreeded sweatbands, there was a time period of frustration when I was really perturbed that they weren't willing to do that for me. I also am perturbed when I receive a 'clean' hat that has grit or removable stains in the felt - now, before I send a hat away for reblocking, new sweatband, new ribbon, etc, I first scrub it myself. It's regrettable that I have to do that, but otherwise it will come back too dirty for my tastes. But...I still send the hats in for cleanings at times, because they can really make that finished hat a thing of beauty - much better than I can.

As far as mothbites go, I agree with you - too much labor to justify the cost. That's why my comments in previous posts were focused on unreeded sweatband repair, and using elbow grease to clean felt. And Robert has pointed out why those services are probably also unlikely to be available any time soon.

Now that I'm fully caffeinated, I'll add that this is a great forum, but when discussions get touchy, board members tend to abandon the thread. We all want to be perceived as very loveable here, but a little risky honesty isn't going to hurt a forum. And I don't think it has done so in this thread.

edited: removed a paragraph because I erroneously got confused about some posts I was referencing.

Art - I certainly had no malicious thoughts concerning your work, and wasn't thinking of you when I wrote the previous posts, either before or during. I DID think of you when I was listing a Montecristi last night, only because we had discussed my sending it to you. I changed my mind because it was just too perfect in its original vintage state to mess with, and I figured someone on the forum would end up buying it and enjoying it as-is. But thanks for your discussion!

 

[ScottF]

I've had bits of felt from old(don't know if they qualify for vintage) repairs fall off when brushing the dust off newly acquired vintage hats on a few occasions, at least twice leaving a small hole exposed.

That is very interesting. I still have a beautiful re-blocked (but holey) vintage hat, awaiting moth-hole repair. I plan to photograph and time the repairs and report back here - just too preoccupied with work at the moment.

 

[mayserwegener]

Would be interesting to see photos of these rare vintage felt repair jobs.

 

[ScottF]

Would be interesting to see photos of these rare vintage felt repair jobs.

I think I have handled some unreeded vintage repair jobs, but uncertain - none have been very clean, so possibly modern, but most have been adequate. Given that most of us continue to wear unreeded vintage hats that are 1/3 to 1/2 disconnected, any repair that helps hold the band on is preferable to nothing.

 

[mayserwegener]

I think I have handled some unreeded vintage repair jobs, but uncertain - none have been very clean, so possibly modern, but most have been adequate. Given that most of us continue to wear unreeded vintage hats that are 1/3 to 1/2 disconnected, any repair that helps hold the band on is preferable to nothing.

I would like to see the vintage felt repair work that Art and RLK mentioned.

 

[Pilot99]

Everyone, I appreciate the comments, I have in fact learned a lot and I thank you. I guess this hat will just have to be my test dummy in trying to start learning to repair my own hats. Yes, $300 is not a justified expenditure for a hat that isn't even worth that. Moth bites are just the pits, oh well, thanks again everyone...sorry to create a thread that caused some heat.