Moon pioneer helped Nazis

[cookie]

http://www.smh.com.au/action/printArticle?id=419695

 

[MrBern]

There is a line in The Right Stuff about the captured(liberated?) Axis rocket scientists in the cold war space race: Our Germans are better than their Germans.

The Good German movie touched on the urgency of snatching up those V2 rocket engineers.

also there was Operation Paperclip:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

 

[WH1]

I live in the Huntsville area and visit the space and rocket center on a frequent basis. It is an amazing place but the thing which amazes me most is outside they have a collection of rockets tracing the path of the US space program and it all starts with the V1 rocket. Indoors they have a substantial display on the V2 rocket and about the German scientists involved in the program with virtually nothing about their involvement with the Nazi party.

On Redstone Arsenal the Von Braun Complex houses the US Space and Missile Defense Command. I refered to it jokingly one day as the nazi complex to which I was indignantly told it was not. I then informed the individual that Werner Von Braun was a member of the Nazi Party and utilized slave labor. At first I was not believed then a History channel documentary supported the statement. The individual was shocked. Amazing the lack of historical knowledge or rather the rewriting of history. I am aware most Germans were not Nazis and as has been pointed out they were our Germans. Von Braun was an interesting individual who made many contributions, but I am not aware that he ever disavowed or apologized for his involvement in the Nazi party. [huh] Perhaps someone else can illuminate.

 

[Diamondback]

Where to start?

Let's see, von Braun:
->Personally insulted Heinrich Himmler to his face*
->Did hard time in an SS prison
->Mounted a "stealth humanitarian campaign" on behalf of the slave laborers building the V-2.**
*"This rocket project is like a flower--it requires the gentle hand of a gardener. What I fear you are planning is a big gush of liquid manure--that would kill our little flower!"--re Himmler's efforts to move Peenemunde from Wehrmacht to SS control
**First time he was summoned to the works, he complained about conditions only to be told "Shut up or join them". Round two, technical angle: "Your parts are unacceptably poor, and why? Because the way you treat these people, they physically can not make parts of sufficient quality." Not quite an Oskar Schindler, but a lower-key riff on a similar theme.

A quote to consider on why von Braun sent his brother out with orders to seek out an American unit, surrender to them and lead them back to the running-for-their-lives rocket team: "Having lived under one totalitarian regime, we had no desire to live under a second."

You might find Wernher von Braun: Crusader for Space by Stuhlinger and Ordway a worthwhile read for some exculpatory evidence--it's a bear to find, I had to go all the way to Cape Canaveral for mine. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to blindly defend the Peenemunde team--they should have known who and what they were getting into bed with. On the upside, think about how much the money Hitler gave them could have bought in Panzers, King Tigers and Fw190s and you see that by bleeding out the German treasury, they actually did help the Allied war effort. Part of me suspects that some of the team might have seen using their skills on our behalf was a way to atone for what their previous work had done.

 

[WH1]

Diamondback:eusa_clap
thanks for the information. Interesting point about atonement, unfortunately with this gentlemans death it will most likely remain unknown.

 

[donCarlos]

I think it´s not necessary to remind you that the whole soviet and american rocket programmes were built on the original german research, so these "news" about who was a nazi are not surprising for me. The right question would be "who of the top scientists of that time was not a nazi?"

It´s always the same - if you want to accomplish a task that needs a government support, you have to play their game. Plus, that "game" was not bad for them - they could get as many people as they wanted and nearly as much money and material as they needed.
That was the same in the Nazi Germany and then in the USSR, whereas in the USA the space programme became dependant on the public opinion. (certainly not in the beggining, but in the late 60´s, when the flights got more expensive, frequent and we were almost certain that there is nothing excitingfor the public in the nearby space).

I hope this post doesn´t offend anyone, it´s a bit thin ice.

 

[Slim Portly]

Everyone, good posts on a touchy subject. This is how these conversations should be held.

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Ahh, the Good Old Days, the Cold War...

A quote from the movie version of, "Ice Station Zebra," comes to mind.

"Jones," played by Patrick McGoohan, says, "The Russians put our camera made by our German scientists and your film made by your German scientists into their satellite made by their German scientists."

 

[p51]

Patton once compared people who joined the Nazi to those who join any other political party in the states, and almost lost his stars over it.
The next time you encouter a PC-living "Soccer Mom" type, ask if she shops at Ikea. If she does, tell her the guy who founded it (Ingvar Kamprad)was a member of the Nazi party as a teenager and step back for the explosion!
It's no joke, I ready about it years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad#Nazi_involvement

 

[WH1]

Amazing what time will do, as I recall the current pope was a member of the Hitler Youth at one time and his predecesor was a member of the Polish underground. Not commenting on politics or religion just musing about time and jelly doughnuts.

 

[donCarlos]

Amazing what time will do, as I recall the current pope was a member of the Hitler Youth at one time and his predecesor was a member of the Polish underground. Not commenting on politics or religion just musing about time and jelly doughnuts.

Just wanted to write that about Benedikt XVI.!

People who had to grow up or live in the Nazi Germany had no choice. Plus, not all aspects of the propaganda and education were bad, people need to acknowledge that!

The main target of their education was to bring up a superman, who was self-conscious, intelligent, hard-working, strong and paradoxicaly who would be able to make his own qualified opinion (it´s hard to believe in a totalitarian society, but it really was meant to be that way).

People with such an education really are somewhat superior, no matter what regime gave them that education. These people are likely to achieve success in life. The only difference between the nazi ideal and american ideal is that the nazi succesfull man is aryan, or at least close and american is...well... anyone.

This may be slightly too political for the lounge, I´ll better leave it alone. All in all, it´s all about propaganda, even after many decades.

 

[cookie]

I'll tell you a story about Werner von Braun..a man whose allegiance was ruled by expedience...Call him a Nazi he won't even frown..Nazi Schmatzi ...said Werner von Braun...