Modesty

[judy3]

You just won't believe what happened to me last Friday. After going to the Jive club, of which I really had a great time twirling the night away with wearing 50s clothes. The most embarrassing thing that every woman hates, and that is I slipped backwards. This caused my skirt and chiffon petticoat to ride up to my waist, showing everyone what I wore underneath, knickers, stockings everything. I didn't hurt myself, but it was my modesty that was hurt. If I go again my face would be as red as a beetroot. What would you do in my shoes, go back to the same club or find another club

 

[belfastboy]

You just won't believe what happened to me last Friday. After going to the Jive club, of which I really had a great time twirling the night away with wearing 50s clothes. The most embarrassing thing that every woman hates, and that is I slipped backwards. This caused my skirt and chiffon petticoat to ride up to my waist, showing everyone what I wore underneath, knickers, stockings everything. I didn't hurt myself, but it was my modesty that was hurt. If I go again my face would be as red as a beetroot. What would you do in my shoes, go back to the same club or find another club

Go the very next chance you get AND walk in like you own the joint!!!!!

 

[rogueclimber]

Get back on that horse

If (and that is a BIG if) anyone remembers, they will admire your moxie

 

[Olumin]

I will attempt to explain how I see it.

"Modestly" is really institutionalized shame. Or in other words, things a culture has formed an agreement about what to be ashamed of. This is insanity of course, but has its very logical origins, which I think are important to understand if we are not to be controlled by it.

While the individual origin of shame lies in one’s upbringing and environment, the actual origin is the need all humans have to "fit in", to be accepted. Why are we shamed to wear certain things, say certain things, to be a certain way? Because we are afraid of the judgement, and rejection, of others. We are afraid of being unacceptable.

This need to be accepted was far more important in our distant past, when we lived in close knit family structures and tribes. To be accepted meant to survive, to be rejected could mean death. This is how we lived for millennia, and our mentality has not changed much since then.


I think the first step, is to understand that this need we all feel (the need to fit in, to be accepted), is something that we all have, simply to varying degrees. That does not excuse it, but it is nothing to be ashamed of either. We understand now that it once served a purpose. We now understand its origin, and so, we can choose to accept it without making it wrong.

Then it would help us to understand that today, to be accepted by everyone is no longer as important as it used to be. We can survive on our own now. To always want to please others, means to always be what someone else wants you to be.

We present a mask to others, because we fear what they might think of the real us. We are taught this from our earliest days. We are told off by our parents and teachers, we are told what not to do, how not to be, else mommy and daddy will not love you anymore. Love and acceptance are made conditional, used as reward and punishment. So, we live a lie, all our lives. We become pathological liars, and our world reflects this. And so we decide to live in a world based on lies, rarther then the truth. So much so, that in many cases, we feel that the truth might kill us.

Another thing important to know; is that people don’t really care about us, they care about themselves. Eventually, we realize, that everyone does everything for themselves. This might sound cruel, but we can use it to our advantage. There is no logic in always trying to please others, it is futile. No one can ever be loved by another that has not first loved themselves. It is like throwing something into an endless void, like "a drop of water on a hot stone". A cup can that never be filled. It is born out of a insatiable need for acceptence and attention, because we withhold these things from outselves.

We project our fear, our frustrations, our pain and anger outwards towards others, because we feel it justifies our own pain. We quite literally get addicted to our pain. After all, if we see another suffering, perhaps our own suffering is not so bad, or even normal? So, we convince ourselves of this (subconsciously, of course), in order to not have to take responsibility, to not have to ask questions about our life and ourselves. To face the pain would be too painful. And so, we perpetuate our pain endlessly. We hurt to escpe our hurt. A vicious cycle of pain. We cannot accept others because, in truth, we can not accept outselves.

This does not mean, of course, that we should never consider anothers position. If we ourselves weren’t hurt, we also would feel no need to hurt another. If we would accept ourselves just the way we are, we would find nothing outside of us unacceptable. It would be insanity. To act in a way that most benefits all parties bacomes the only logical, or sane, conclusion. Because to treat others like you yourself would want to be treated, benefits you the most as well, in the long run. It is the basis for all cooperation, for our continued mutual coexistence, and our success as indivuals and as a species.

So, you see the dichotomy, the irony; for if we were really selfish, we would often choose to act quite selflessly. So, it is not selfishness that is the problem, but our fear and pain that motivates our actions. You could say it has given selfishness a bad name, for what it really is, is insanity.


So, all this begs the quesiton: Why did you come here to tell us this story? Was it out of a genuine and innocent curiosity to examine and reflect on yourself; or did you perhabs hope to gather sympathy in order to simply justify how to feel? This is not meant as judgement, and I dont want an answer to this queston. You may simply ask yourself, if you like.


I realize that I went off on a tangent here, but I feel all this is important to truly begin to understand our own behaviour, motivations, actions and reactions. We cannot accept what we dont understand, and what we cannot accept, we can never change. By rejecting it, we make it someone else's fault, make it something outside of ourselves. How can we change something about us that we declare is not our own? It is impossible.

I could have given a short answer; but out of context, it would mean nothing. Perhaps someone, if not you, will find it useful. If you feel it is not, feel free to simply ignore it. And dont simply take what I wrote as the truth, because it is my truth. What is your truth? What do do you think? No one is helped by simply being fed the facts. That is not education, that is indoctrination. Instead, listen to the facts, and from that, form your own wisdom. Wisdom is knowedge applied. And wisdom, is always autobiography. If you do not question others wisdom, all you will learn is doctrine.

 

[LizzieMaine]

A reminder to the men posting that the Powder Room is for women only. Posts in the women's section intended for a mixed crowd go to the Front Parlor. As for how to deal with it, I've had embarrassing things happen to me, onstage and off, and the best way to deal with it is pretend it never happened. Smooth your clothes and resume what you're doing as if you could not possibly care less about the incident. Gawpers and snickerers and fetishists just love a horrified, embarrassed reaction in a situation like this, but an attitude of calm, cool imperturbability shuts them right down. Be Rosalind Russell, not Betty Boop.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Moving to the Front Parlor by request of the OP. Gents should keep in mind that they're guests in this section of the Lounge, and should post accordingly.

 

[belfastboy]

I will attempt to explain how I see it.

"Modestly" is really institutionalized shame. Or in other words, things a culture has formed an agreement about what to be ashamed of. This is insanity of course, but has its very logical origins, which I think are important to understand if we are not to be controlled by it.

While the individual origin of shame lies in one’s upbringing and environment, the actual origin is the need all humans have to "fit in", to be accepted. Why are we shamed to wear certain things, say certain things, to be a certain way? Because we are afraid of the judgement, and rejection, of others. We are afraid of being unacceptable.

This need to be accepted was far more important in our distant past, when we lived in close knit family structures and tribes. To be accepted meant to survive, to be rejected could mean death. This is how we lived for millennia, and our mentality has not changed much since then.


I think the first step, is to understand that this need we all feel (the need to fit in, to be accepted), is something that we all have, simply to varying degrees. That does not excuse it, but it is nothing to be ashamed of either. We understand now that it once served a purpose. We now understand its origin, and so, we can choose to accept it without making it wrong.

Then it would help us to understand that today, to be accepted by everyone is no longer as important as it used to be. We can survive on our own now. To always want to please others, means to always be what someone else wants you to be.

We present a mask to others, because we fear what they might think of the real us. We are taught this from our earliest days. We are told off by our parents and teachers, we are told what not to do, how not to be, else mommy and daddy will not love you anymore. Love and acceptance are made conditional, used as reward and punishment. So, we live a lie, all our lives. We become pathological liars, and our world reflects this. And so we decide to live in a world based on lies, rarther then the truth. So much so, that in many cases, we feel that the truth might kill us.

Another thing important to know; is that people don’t really care about us, they care about themselves. Eventually, we realize, that everyone does everything for themselves. This might sound cruel, but we can use it to our advantage. There is no logic in always trying to please others, it is futile. No one can ever be loved by another that has not first loved themselves. It is like throwing something into an endless void, like "a drop of water on a hot stone". A cup can that never be filled. It is born out of a insatiable need for acceptence and attention, because we withhold these things from outselves.

We project our fear, our frustrations, our pain and anger outwards towards others, because we feel it justifies our own pain. We quite literally get addicted to our pain. After all, if we see another suffering, perhaps our own suffering is not so bad, or even normal? So, we convince ourselves of this (subconsciously, of course), in order to not have to take responsibility, to not have to ask questions about our life and ourselves. To face the pain would be too painful. And so, we perpetuate our pain endlessly. We hurt to escpe our hurt. A vicious cycle of pain. We cannot accept others because, in truth, we can not accept outselves.

This does not mean, of course, that we should never consider anothers position. If we ourselves weren’t hurt, we also would feel no need to hurt another. If we would accept ourselves just the way we are, we would find nothing outside of us unacceptable. It would be insanity. To act in a way that most benefits all parties bacomes the only logical, or sane, conclusion. Because to treat others like you yourself would want to be treated, benefits you the most as well, in the long run. It is the basis for all cooperation, for our continued mutual coexistence, and our success as indivuals and as a species.

So, you see the dichotomy, the irony; for if we were really selfish, we would often choose to act quite selflessly. So, it is not selfishness that is the problem, but our fear and pain that motivates our actions. You could say it has given selfishness a bad name, for what it really is, is insanity.


So, all this begs the quesiton: Why did you come here to tell us this story? Was it out of a genuine and innocent curiosity to examine and reflect on yourself; or did you perhabs hope to gather sympathy in order to simply justify how to feel? This is not meant as judgement, and I dont want an answer to this queston. You may simply ask yourself, if you like.


I realize that I went off on a tangent here, but I feel all this is important to truly begin to understand our own behaviour, motivations, actions and reactions. We cannot accept what we dont understand, and what we cannot accept, we can never change. By rejecting it, we make it someone else's fault, make it something outside of ourselves. How can we change something about us that we declare is not our own? It is impossible.

I could have given a short answer; but out of context, it would mean nothing. Perhaps someone, if not you, will find it useful. If you feel it is not, feel free to simply ignore it. And dont simply take what I wrote as the truth, because it is my truth. What is your truth? What do do you think? No one is helped by simply being fed the facts. That is not education, that is indoctrination. Instead, listen to the facts, and from that, form your own wisdom. Wisdom is knowedge applied. And wisdom, is always autobiography. If you do not question others wisdom, all you will learn is doctrine.

I worked in the Restorative Justice field for a number of years. In our work/training we discussed 'reintegrative shame' and viewed this aspect of shame in a positive light. This form of shame actually plays an important and positive role in bumping us back into mainstream behaviour when we transgress societal norms. It helps to define the limits of acceptable behaviour, raises a warning and helps to nudge us back into community. Now this form of shame has no role in the posted incident. But I point it out as not all shame is negative and harmful.

 

[Olumin]

I worked in the Restorative Justice field for a number of years. In our work/training we discussed 'reintegrative shame' and viewed this aspect of shame in a positive light. This form of shame actually plays an important and positive role in bumping us back into mainstream behaviour when we transgress societal norms. It helps to define the limits of acceptable behaviour, raises a warning and helps to nudge us back into community. Now this form of shame has no role in the posted incident. But I point it out as not all shame is negative and harmful.

It's good that you don't just take what I said as gospel, you ask questions.
I will quote someting here that I wrote in another thread:

"It is not about what’s right. What’s right is meaningless, it’s subjective, dependent on context. Too many decisions are made based on what’s "right". When we make a choice based on what’s "right", do we make a choice at all, or do we simply follow the choice someone else has laid out for us? We make a choice to not make a choice, because it is convenient, because we do not have to take responsibility. But a decision to not make a decision is still a choice. We are still responsible. The trolley problem is solved, and the solution is that there never was a problem, that there never was a dilemma."


When we are, for the first time, told to not do something because it is "wrong" (like all of us are, from the earliest childhood), we rightfully ask "why?". This is where the punishment begins. No disagreement is allowed, no critical thinking, no challenging of authority. We are told something is wrong, but we never learn why is it considered wrong! Why is something "wrong", and why "right"? Without understanding, without asking questions, we are doomed to repeat the same insanity over and over. We are caught in a vicious cycle. We are literally bullied into being a certain way, kept in line with fear, threat of violence or loss of our freedom.

We are raised and surrounded by people who are angry, who are afraid, who shout, who hurt others, who lie. We see it in television, hear it in the radio, read it in books, in the newspaper. We are exposed to it before we are even born. But when we inevitably do the same, we are told it is wrong. Who could blame anyone for being confused?

Instead of asking questions, real questions, instead of explaining; we judge, we make wrong, we call them evil, we lock them up, we beat them, we shame them. We strip them of all their dignity. All so we don’t have to ask questions. If you truly believe that some people are just born "evil", are simply "rotten" by their very nature, do insane things knowing them to be insane; then you understand nothing of the complexity of the human experience. We do this because it is easy, because it is convenient, because it excuses us to change nothing, allows us to continue the insanity.

If we did ask questions, got to the bottom of things, saw things for what they really are; then we would have to admit that the very same "evil" is in all of us, that it is simply a matter of degree. We would have to admit that we, too, are responsible. That the criminal is the same as us. We could not ignore it, could not look away, could not shift the blame. But this we cannot bear, and of course nothing changes. We lock away criminals expecting they will change. But of course, they don’t, and end right back where they started. No one ever bothered to tell them what they did "wrong".

We tell them stealing is wrong, instead of explaining why sharing is logical. We tell them killing is wrong, instead of explaining why preserving life is useful. We tell them lying is wrong, instead of telling them why being honest is so important. And how could be explain it, considering we were never taught ourselves? What does an insane world know about sanity?

We are never told of real love, in fact most people never experience it in their whole lifetime. We are never allowed to accept ourselves just as we are, we are never taught about responsibility, never taught about honesty. We are never taught the most basic of common sense. What kind of behavior can one expect? How can one expect to "turn out"? But to fix those problems would mean to look at ourselves, to ask the hard questions. The criminals are not the problem, is it the world that gave birth to them, allowed them to exist. We allowed them to exist. We are the criminals. We are the problem.

So, when someone comes along and tells us „Hey, things could be different!". When someone points out the insanity. When someone dares speak the truth, tells it to us straight; we laugh at them. We shame them, we kick them, we even kill them. We cannot even imagine a world different from the one we know, have never learned to ask questions. Instead, we learned that to ask questions is to be punished, to be rejected.

Punishment changes nothing, it is self-defeating. No real change can ever come without real understanding. Understanding without judgement, without punishment, without "right" and "wrong". You say "not all shame is negative and harmful", I say it is, quite literally, the "source of all evil".

 

[belfastboy]

It's good that you don't just take what I said as gospel, you ask questions.
I will quote someting here that I wrote in another thread:

"It is not about what’s right. What’s right is meaningless, it’s subjective, dependent on context. Too many decisions are made based on what’s "right". When we make a choice based on what’s "right", do we make a choice at all, or do we simply follow the choice someone else has laid out for us? We make a choice to not make a choice, because it is convenient, because we do not have to take responsibility. But a decision to not make a decision is still a choice. We are still responsible. The trolley problem is solved, and the solution is that there never was a problem, that there never was a dilemma."


When we are, for the first time, told to not do something because it is "wrong" (like all of us are, from the earliest childhood), we rightfully ask "why?". This is where the punishment begins. No disagreement is allowed, no critical thinking, no challenging of authority. We are told something is wrong, but we never learn why is it considered wrong! Why is something "wrong", and why "right"? Without understanding, without asking questions, we are doomed to repeat the same insanity over and over. We are caught in a vicious cycle. We are literally bullied into being a certain way, kept in line with fear, threat of violence or loss of our freedom.

We are raised and surrounded by people who are angry, who are afraid, who shout, who hurt others, who lie. We see it in television, hear it in the radio, read it in books, in the newspaper. We are exposed to it before we are even born. But when we inevitably do the same, we are told it is wrong. Who could blame anyone for being confused?

Instead of asking questions, real questions, instead of explaining; we judge, we make wrong, we call them evil, we lock them up, we beat them, we shame them. We strip them of all their dignity. All so we don’t have to ask questions. If you truly believe that some people are just born "evil", are simply "rotten" by their very nature, do insane things knowing them to be insane; then you understand nothing of the complexity of the human experience. We do this because it is easy, because it is convenient, because it excuses us to change nothing, allows us to continue the insanity.

If we did ask questions, got to the bottom of things, saw things for what they really are; then we would have to admit that the very same "evil" is in all of us, that it is simply a matter of degree. We would have to admit that we, too, are responsible. That the criminal is the same as us. We could not ignore it, could not look away, could not shift the blame. But this we cannot bear, and of course nothing changes. We lock away criminals expecting they will change. But of course, they don’t, and end right back where they started. No one ever bothered to tell them what they did "wrong".

We tell them stealing is wrong, instead of explaining why sharing is logical. We tell them killing is wrong, instead of explaining why preserving life is useful. We tell them lying is wrong, instead of telling them why being honest is so important. And how could be explain it, considering we were never taught ourselves? What does an insane world know about sanity?

We are never told of real love, in fact most people never experience it in their whole lifetime. We are never allowed to accept ourselves just as we are, we are never taught about responsibility, never taught about honesty. We are never taught the most basic of common sense. What kind of behavior can one expect? How can one expect to "turn out"? But to fix those problems would mean to look at ourselves, to ask the hard questions. The criminals are not the problem, is it the world that gave birth to them, allowed them to exist. We allowed them to exist. We are the criminals. We are the problem.

So, when someone comes along and tells us „Hey, things could be different!". When someone points out the insanity. When someone dares speak the truth, tells it to us straight; we laugh at them. We shame them, we kick them, we even kill them. We cannot even imagine a world different from the one we know, have never learned to ask questions. Instead, we learned that to ask questions is to be punished, to be rejected.

Punishment changes nothing, it is self-defeating. No real change can ever come without real understanding. Understanding without judgement, without punishment, without "right" and "wrong". You say "not all shame is negative and harmful", I say it is, quite literally, the "source of all evil".

I take it you are not familiar with the concept of 'restorative justice' ....Check it out and you will come to a place of greater understanding where reintegrative shame is positive and useful. Hint: the meaning is given away in the name....restorative.

 

[FOXTROT LAMONT]

Punishment changes nothing, it is self-defeating. No real change can ever come without real understanding. Understanding without judgement, without punishment, without "right" and "wrong". You say "not all shame is negative and harmful", I say it is, quite literally, the "source of all evil".

Shame is spaked conscience; hardly ''the source of all evil.''
There is right and there is wrong. And truth is no less real for its exactitude of conscience.

I realize this thread began as a result of simple human nature; after a lady's embarrassment
at a dance. Her shame is commendable and a token bequeathed conscience although she herself is blameless.

 

[judy3]

Thank you for replies. I was just embarrassed. OK, it sometimes happens to other women, but when it does happen, it's awful. But the worst part, was spending time dressing for the occasion and buying things that men don't usually see. Aw well what is done can't be undone. After thinking about it I shall have to put a brave face on it and return to the jive club, which means buying a new pair of stockings