Modern rabbit, vintage rabbit, modern beaver

[jamespowers]

Same here for most of my hats - it will be raining here in Seattle pretty much every day until June, so that's just life. But I can understand someone being nervous about taking a really nice thin-felt dress hat out in a rainstorm.

If a hat won't stand up in rain it isn't a hat--its just an ornament. A hat is supposed to withstand the elements.
I wear my vintage Borsalinos in every kind of weather without a single worry. The color doesn't run, the felt doesn't leak and ut does not stain the felt. In fact, it makes the felt feel and look better. Kind of like felt vitamins.
The mid 1960s-1970s Borsalinos I have no idea about. I rarely come across one and have none in my collection. [huh]

 

[mayserwegener]

I have 40s Borsalinos... and they aren't drooping in the rain anytime soon.

Perhaps they were still making an okay product in the 70s, yet the 70s was a long long time ago.

As for the 40s versions... Well Let's just say that when it rains I don't worry at all about my vintage Borsalinos in a downpour. They've taken heavy rain time and time again and do fine, where as the modern ones don't even need rain to droop.

I should have clarified. I was addressing the quality point. Borsalino felt quality (also construction) was great into the 70s. Same with the others brands RLK mentioned. As for extreme weather conditions I will stick with my style cringing modern day Zapfs.

 

[Matt Deckard]

The 70s Borsalinos I've seen do look like the 40's versions... liners and all. Even Cavanagh edges. Yet the felt just seamed drier to me. There were a couple hanging around Baron hats about 10 or 12 years ago. I thought they were vintage, but sure enough they were Borsalinos that the shop got about 15 years earlier yet never sold. From the old factory. The felt was tighter and smooth but i don't know if it would hold up like the old stuff since the hats were way too small for my head and that's not something I'm about to buy. I'm not sure what happened to them, I remember always going to check them out whenever I'd walk in the shop. Baron now only caries their own fur felt in an effort to strengthen their name on the market.

 

[ScottF]

If a hat won't stand up in rain it isn't a hat--its just an ornament. A hat is supposed to withstand the elements.
I wear my vintage Borsalinos in every kind of weather without a single worry. The color doesn't run, the felt doesn't leak and ut does not stain the felt. In fact, it makes the felt feel and look better. Kind of like felt vitamins.
The mid 1960s-1970s Borsalinos I have no idea about. I rarely come across one and have none in my collection. [huh]

This 'felt and rain' discussion has been enlightening - after reading the comments by others, I gave it some thought as to which hats I tended to take out on exceptionally rainy days: It's the Akubra Fed Deluxe if it's really windy, because of the stiff brim. But otherwise, I take my thin-felt 1930's Brock. The Brock does just fine, and it's been quite soaked. It's also one of my more rare hats, but I still don't give it any thought.

While we collect these things and certainly appreciate the craftsmanship, history, etc., in the end they are functional items we put on our heads. I had a discussion the other day with someone as to the merits of umbrellas vs hats, and I think I made a strong case for the latter.

 

[mayserwegener]

The 70s Borsalinos I've seen do look like the 40's versions... liners and all. Even Cavanagh edges. Yet the felt just seamed drier to me. There were a couple hanging around Baron hats about 10 or 12 years ago. I thought they were vintage, but sure enough they were Borsalinos that the shop got about 15 years earlier yet never sold. From the old factory. The felt was tighter and smooth but i don't know if it would hold up like the old stuff since the hats were way too small for my head and that's not something I'm about to buy. I'm not sure what happened to them, I remember always going to check them out whenever I'd walk in the shop. Baron now only caries their own fur felt in an effort to strengthen their name on the market.

I have a few NOS Borsalinos from the 70s. They are not of the golden era style wise but the felts are of very high quality. One of my nicer long hairs is a 70s Alpen Borsalino. I will have to test them out in heavy rain conditions and report back.

 

[rlk]

While we collect these things and certainly appreciate the craftsmanship, history, etc., in the end they are functional items we put on our heads. I had a discussion the other day with someone as to the merits of umbrellas vs hats, and I think I made a strong case for the latter.

Your hat isn't going to protect anything beyond your head but doesn't require hands. I'll bet you consider the water resistance of the jacket you wear in the rain... I imagine Seal Velour really stands up to water.

 

[jamespowers]

Your hat isn't going to protect anything beyond your head but doesn't require hands. I'll bet you consider the water resistance of the jacket you wear in the rain... I imagine Seal Velour really stands up to water.

Your jacket is dependent on what it is made of just as your hat is made of a felt that is supposed to withstand the weather. I would wear a jacket as suited as a hat is to wet weather.
The last time I checked, my Dobbs Fifteen went out in the rain with me for over four hours and still kept my head dry---my raincoat---not so much. :eusa_doh:

 

[ScottF]

Your hat isn't going to protect anything beyond your head but doesn't require hands. I'll bet you consider the water resistance of the jacket you wear in the rain... I imagine Seal Velour really stands up to water.

Well, it's actually so windy around here that I end up having to hold my hat down with one hand, so 'hands-free' is not really a benefit. No need for Seal velour, since all but the Chatham handle rain fine, but I did pick up the Fed Deluxe with the rainy, windy Seattle Winter in mind - it's basically my bad-weather hat.

Hey, did you ever see Indy with an umbrella?

 

[Richard Warren]

I don't understand the severity of the criticism of Borsalinos. I have a couple from the late 90's/early 2000's that I wear in the rain regularly (and in the snow when I am up North). Afterwards, they look like...hats that have been in the rain. I bought them because they are soft and pliable and I did not expect them to get soaking wet and look like new. I did not want them to.

They have shrunken a little bit, as has every other hat I have ever owned. You might say that vintage hats did not shrink, but I wonder how you could possibly know.

My problem with the most recent Borsalinos I have seen is that they are too thick and stiff.

 

[jamespowers]

I don't understand the severity of the criticism of Borsalinos. I have a couple from the late 90's/early 2000's that I wear in the rain regularly (and in the snow when I am up North). Afterwards, they look like...hats that have been in the rain. I bought them because they are soft and pliable and I did not expect them to get soaking wet and look like new. I did not want them to.

Your expectations are a little different than mine then.

 

[mayserwegener]

I imagine Seal Velour really stands up to water.

Especially the baby seal belly fur ones.

 

[besdor]

As a large dealer in Borsalino hats ,all I can say is that they dont make them like they used to. Part of the reason that I am finding out now after my recent trip to the factory is that the workers of today are not the workers of 20 or 30 years ago. They just dont have the same skill level. This compounded with the quality problems of today will make it quite impossible to duplicate the hat of yesteryear.


Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

 

[zetwal]

As a large dealer in Borsalino hats ,all I can say is that they dont make them like they used to. Part of the reason that I am finding out now after my recent trip to the factory is that the workers of today are not the workers of 20 or 30 years ago. They just dont have the same skill level.

Worker skills and materials aside. Have the tools and machines in the factory changed? Or are the processes and machines different now than they were (say) in the 50s?

 

[jamespowers]

As a large dealer in Borsalino hats ,all I can say is that they dont make them like they used to. Part of the reason that I am finding out now after my recent trip to the factory is that the workers of today are not the workers of 20 or 30 years ago. They just dont have the same skill level. This compounded with the quality problems of today will make it quite impossible to duplicate the hat of yesteryear.


Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

Ding! Ding! Ding! You said the secret truth:

There is not the level of skill available today in the factory hatting industry. It is really quite simple when you consider that the knowledge of the old master hatters went out the window with few left and few to apprentice as they used to do. The decrease in demand for hats over the last fifty years had a lot to do with this.
Quality problems today have a lot to do with the workers level of skill and ability to use even the best machines. Even a machinist has to have a high level of skill if the machine is to work correctly and make a quality product. Many factories are still using the same machines they used 100 years ago but the knowledge to use it to its fullest possiblity is lacking.

 

[besdor]

The machines are the same as they were from 50 years ago and that is also the problem . There is little improvment in effciency in hat production. i know of one factory(not Borsalino) that stopped making a certain finish becasue the workers that are there dont know how to duplicate it anymore. Certain types of edge finishing are lost to time because of this.

Steven
www.bencrafthats.com

 

[Fedora]

You might say that vintage hats did not shrink, but I wonder how you could possibly know.

The thing is, today, a vintage hat seems invincible against water, that is, no tapering of the crown, or a reversal to the cone used originally to create the hat.

But back in the old days, do you think felt did not shrink? I don't think so. I think it would shrink and taper, as that is what felt does. When new. The reason our vintage hats don't suffer from the taper issue is because the fur is old, today. Fur is a live material, until it ages for many years. Therefore a live hat will react differently than one that is very old. An example would be an old humidity gauge, made in the early to mid 1900's. The main part of the instrument was a strand of human hair. Over time, that hair would no longer react to the humidity, and the instrument would stop working. It got too old. But, these could be rebuilt as good as new, just by replacing that one strand of hair. Nothing illustrates what happens to fur(hair) better. Of course, in the case of a hat, this aging is a GOOD thing. The fur no longer reacts to water, and the drying, because for lack of a better term, it is now dead.

To even make a hat from fur requires for the cone to shrink up, because without this shrinkage or felting, you could not make a hat from fur. Now, once the cone is felted down, to around 1/3 its original size, it is put on a block that MAY not be cone shaped. The fur is then stretched out, on the top of the cone, to form whatever crown is intended for this specific hat. This stretch is not permanent in a new hat. It is in an unnatural state. It is stretched. When the hat gets wet, it forgets the block shape, and reverts to the cone. Only when the fur in the hat does not react to the elements, many years later, does that hat become stable in crown shape. And that is the only reason vintage hats are not prone to shrinkage on the tip of the hat.

I used to own many vintage hats, of the lower quality lines. All were a very porous felt, not very tight at all. Yet, they did not shrink when worn in the rain. When, if new, they would have shrunk up like an appendage in cold water. lol

And I am sorry, but I will never believe any hat made of wool and rabbit fur is shrink proof. It goes against science. I relegate these stories to the same category as the guys who swear they bought an HJ, and wore it in frog stranglers, with no tapering! It is impossible. Now, I say this in my kindest manner, so don't take me as being a jerk. I am opinionated, but only based from my own experience, working with all sorts of felt. I have handmade several thousand hats in my short career, and reblocked hundreds of these other brands. And in regards to these claims, I am from Missouri. Show me, in person.

The machines are the same as they were from 50 years ago and that is also the problem . There is little improvment in effciency in hat production. i know of one factory(not Borsalino) that stopped making a certain finish becasue the workers that are there dont know how to duplicate it anymore. Certain types of edge finishing are lost to time because of this.

Yes, I agree. But, then I don't know if a better felting machine could be built today, but I guess it is possible. There were at least two major brands of these machines, in the mid 20th century. Both used the same principle, but the mechanics of what did the kneading of the fur cones, did vary. And I don't know which one was deemed better.

To my knowledge no one makes the Cavanagh Edge anymore. But that knowledge still resides with my feltmaker, as Brad Bowers had him to make him one, for a research paper. But by and large, this artform has gone the way of the Dodo. And this is due to basically not enough demand from hat buyers. No vacuum there to fill. Or enough of it.





I always wondered why hat bodies were made in a cone shape to begin with. Why not use a form in place of the cone that more resembled the finished product? A cone that was not so cone shaped? To me, that would produce a hat that did not want to revert to the original cone shape traditionally used. But, I wasn't around back when all of this stuff was invented. And there may be a reason I am not aware of, in regards to why they used a cone, instead of something that resembled a hat. Perhaps it was the only way a hat body could be made. I just don't know. Fedora

 

[babs]

Interesting post

As a newbie that's not even seen felt making in person or online or other I have a completely uneducated guess on why they do it in a cone shape verses something closer to a finished hat.

Here it is.. Get ready to laugh I bet.

As the fur is vacuumed or blown onto the cone (I think that's the process.. not sure), if they did this on a more "hat" shape, they might encounter issues with assuring a uniform thickness throughout the hat, from center through crease in the brim/crown area, to edge of brim. My uneducated hypothesis is the cone shape is more obliging for consistent thickness/density of felting all around the hat throughout from center to brim edge.

As a complete newb to fedora's and a new fan to vintage hats, the process does absolutely fascinate me.. I'd love to watch it happen someday.

 

[mayserwegener]

l

And I am sorry, but I will never believe any hat made of wool and rabbit fur is shrink proof. It goes against science. I relegate these stories to the same category as the guys who swear they bought an HJ, and wore it in frog stranglers, with no tapering! It is impossible. Now, I say this in my kindest manner, so don't take me as being a jerk. I am opinionated, but only based from my own experience, working with all sorts of felt. I have handmade several thousand hats in my short career, and reblocked hundreds of these other brands. And in regards to these claims, I am from Missouri. Show me, in person.

So are you saying the Zapf hat I posted can't stand up to extreme weather conditions? I have no idea about the taper situation so it would be interesting to see how it matches up against the hats you make in extreme weather conditions.

 

[Fedora]

For bad weather wear I will put this modern Zapf up against any hat any era. It is my number one go to SUPER bad weather (rain, snow, sleat) hat.

Warning! Golden Era Stylenistas please close your eyes!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3358/...52ee7d8e28.jpg

Of course it is. It already is close to the original cone used, so I can understand why it doesn't taper. But take that same material, and make a hat that has a straight crown, and you would see the taper we are talking about. It does not have to revert to the original cone, because it never was stretched out on the tip. It is, in other words, the original cone. Or close to it. So, no tapering will occur, as it is in its original felted state, or close to it.

I could make a hat out of one of my bodies, and leave the crown as is, that is, as recieved. I would bet it would never shrink up past what it is now. But, stretch out the top part and you would have a different story to tell.

So, if you want a modern rain hat that won't taper, get one with a real tapered crown. But don't expect a full crowned new hat to not taper. No matter what fur is used. One brand might take longer to taper, but all will taper eventually, if you get em' wet. And they did in the heyday of hats too. Almost every dry cleaners had a hat reblocking service back in those days. Reblocking hats to get back the original crown shape sure ain't new. Always been around. There was nothing magical about those old hats, when they were brand new. Just find a really old hatter, around 90 years old, and ask him. I feel certain he would agree with me.

 

[mayserwegener]

Of course it is. It already is close to the original cone used, so I can understand why it doesn't taper. But take that same material, and make a hat that has a straight crown, and you would see the taper we are talking about. It does not have to revert to the original cone, because it never was stretched out on the tip. It is, in other words, the original cone. Or close to it. So, no tapering will occur, as it is in its original felted state, or close to it.

I could make a hat out of one of my bodies, and leave the crown as is, that is, as recieved. I would bet it would never shrink up past what it is now. But, stretch out the top part and you would have a different story to tell.

So, if you want a modern rain hat that won't taper, get one with a real tapered crown. But don't expect a full crowned new hat to not taper. No matter what fur is used. One brand might take longer to taper, but all will taper eventually, if you get em' wet. And they did in the heyday of hats too. Almost every dry cleaners had a hat reblocking service back in those days. Reblocking hats to get back the original crown shape sure ain't new. Always been around. There was nothing magical about those old hats, when they were brand new. Just find a really old hatter, around 90 years old, and ask him. I feel certain he would agree with me.

I acknowledge taper. I just pointed out that I wear this hat (other similar ones) in extreme weather conditions. The felt is also over a 1/4 inch thick which makes it hard to saturate (also very warm).

Why don't you make your own felt like the Austrian hat maker I posted? This would allow to try other options other than a cone.