Modern rabbit, vintage rabbit, modern beaver

[daizawaguy]

I`ve read so much about the differences in felt, and thought I`d put up some photos to illustrate the differences, if thats at all possible on a screen...

Modern

 

[daizawaguy]

Vintage...

 

[daizawaguy]

Beaver...

 

[feltfan]

Great comparison. But what is difficult to tell from the pictures is if
we are seeing a difference in the overall fineness of the fur, the
density of the felt (due to superior felting process), or a difference
in pouncing quality.

I had a similar thought about the WOOL thread. Those vintage
wool hats, though they are made of the same thing as today's
wool hats, benefit from a very different felting process.

Care to comment on the weight/density/finish of those hats?

 

[daizawaguy]

Good point. They are almost equally weighted (thickness). But what is quite different is the stiffness. They obviously feel different, but the degree of stiffness makes me think that the fur density is different. That is, the modern rabbit ones need more stiffner, and the beaver`s hairs are the finest and is more supple. Another feature is the roll down/snap down of the brim. the modern ones `click` down (more stiffner?), whereas the vintage and beaver roll/melt down, and you can shape them...any thoughts anyone?

 

[animator]

Neat comparison!

I have a modern Pinnacle which is all beaver and it clicks down as you describe the modern rabbit doing, I think because of the stiffener. My VS all beavers "roll" down as you mentioned. Maybe all or at least Stetson modern hats act like that not because the felt necessarily needed the stiffener, but just because Stetson chose to use so much. I would like the Pinnacle much better if it wasn't so stiff.

 

[Dewhurst]

Seems like an exercise in tireless triviality. You would need a sampling size FAR larger than a measly three hats. (Or even 100! Or even one thousand!)

Case in point: I have a 100% rabbit fur felt fedora that I bought a year ago whose finish looks NOTHING like the "modern" image you provide. Unfortunately, it looks almost EXACTLY like the "vintage" picture you provide.

I actually held it up to the screen and had my wife tell me what she thought. lol

She chose "vintage". [huh]

Also, to add to your brim "clicks" down or "rolls" down thing. I have noticed that hemmed edges on fedoras (new and old) generally tend to enhance the "click" or make the "roll" more distinct.

 

[shortbow]

Interesting. The beaver looks like the felt on my old Borsalinos, yet I have gathered from comments in the past that they are rabbit?

 

[Mulceber]

Seems like an exercise in tireless triviality. You would need a sampling size FAR larger than a measly three hats. (Or even 100! Or even one thousand!)

Case in point: I have a 100% rabbit fur felt fedora that I bought a year ago whose finish looks NOTHING like the "modern" image you provide. Unfortunately, it looks almost EXACTLY like the "vintage" picture you provide.

I actually held it up to the screen and had my wife tell me what she thought. lol

She chose "vintage". [huh]

Also, to add to your brim "clicks" down or "rolls" down thing. I have noticed that hemmed edges on fedoras (new and old) generally tend to enhance the "click" or make the "roll" more distinct.

I agree completely. Rabbit hats these days run the gamut from crappy (eg. dorfman-pacific) to extremely high quality (eg. Optimo). I'm sure it did then too - we just don't have many examples of it because the lower quality hats were unlikely to survive to the present day. The fact that you managed to find a vintage rabbit that is finer than a modern rabbit tells us exactly that: there is A vintage rabbit felt hat out there which is better than A modern rabbit felt hat. -M

 

[PabloElFlamenco]

Veering slightly into near fftopic: territory, in the 1936 hat catalog Feltfan posted http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=44749&page=3 there is one entire page of "Belgian beaver" hats. I can assure you that, in 1936 -and even in 1836, I would think-, there were NO beavers at all in Belgium. Rabbits aplenty, though. In fact, I've recently been informed that Akubra uses "Belgian hare" in their hats. That I could -perhaps- believe, even if "hare" might in fact turn out to be rabbit. It seems to be generally estabished, however, that Belgium would appear to have been, already in the 19th century, a major supplier of rabbit fur to hat makers like Stetson and Borsalino. And then there is the color "Belgium" which I first saw on the inside of a cowboy hat in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I assume that color would then come from the "natural" color of Belgian rabbit fur...

 

[daizawaguy]

Interesting comments. In my first line I stated that I will post `some` photos, and even caveat that by noting that the screen may not reveal the real quality of the felt. In my first post I do not even draw a conclusion at all, and in my second all I say that the beaver is softer and the rabbit is stiffer. I am of course refering to the exact hats in the photo, and not making general statements, nor even do I conclude that one is better than the other...[huh] In any case, all views are welcome - I don`t mind being on the receiving end

 

[Dewhurst]

Interesting comments. In my first line I stated that I will post `some` photos, and even caveat that by noting that the screen may not reveal the real quality of the felt. In my first post I do not even draw a conclusion at all, and in my second all I say that the beaver is softer and the rabbit is stiffer. I am of course refering to the exact hats in the photo, and not making general statements, nor even do I conclude that one is better than the other...[huh] In any case, all views are welcome - I don`t mind being on the receiving end

One almost wonders what the point of this exercise is then?!?!

 

[avedwards]

And then there's the rabbit vs. hare issue. Akubra use to use fur from wild hares, which was softer and better quality. Now they use fur from rabbits raised on farms for food.

I think the visual look comes down to pouncing most of the time, and the stiffness to stiffener. To do a real comparison you'd need to control all the variables.

I believe beaver in the old days used to be considered better because the fur had more "hooks" and scales on the shafts, making for stronger, tighter felt. After they discovered chemical treatments that could roughen and scale rabbit fur, this advantage was lost, and rabbit has been as sturdy as beaver for the last century or more. The idea that beaver is "softer" may simply be a unconscious transference over time of the idea that beaver was "better," although the "betterness" was actually originally due to durability rather than softness. Now beaver is "better" because it's more expensive, which simply comes down to supply: you can't farm it like you can farm rabbits in Belgium.

I have to respectfully disagree about beaver and rabbit being of equal quality if the correct chemical treatment is used. There's no doubt that high quality (both modern and vintage) rabbit felt hats exist. I own two good quality modern ones, one with a stiffer felt which clicks when snapped and one of very soft (but substantial) felt which nearly rolls when snapped. However, I still think beaver will be better. John Penmann makes both beaver and rabbit hats, but he prices beaver higher because of the higher quality. In his case the variables are all the same as they are made by the same factory and finished by him in the same way. In messages and posts by him and owners of his hats I was told me that his rabbit is of high quality, but not as high as his beaver.

 

[Mulceber]

I have to respectfully disagree about beaver and rabbit being of equal quality if the correct chemical treatment is used. There's no doubt that high quality (both modern and vintage) rabbit felt hats exist. I own two good quality modern ones, one with a stiffer felt which clicks when snapped and one of very soft (but substantial) felt which clicks silently and nearly rolls. However, I still think beaver will be better. John Penmann makes both beaver and rabbit hats, but he prices beaver higher because of the higher quality. In his case the variables are all the same as they are made by the same factory and finished by him in the same way. In messages and posts by him and owners of his hats I was told me that his rabbit is of high quality, but not as high as his beaver.

Agreed. Rabbit can achieve a very level of quality, but in general, I think, beaver is the better felt, in terms of the density, the softness and the durability.

I believe beaver in the old days used to be considered better because the fur had more "hooks" and scales on the shafts, making for stronger, tighter felt. After they discovered chemical treatments that could roughen and scale rabbit fur, this advantage was lost, and rabbit has been as sturdy as beaver for the last century or more.

Actually, it's not just the higher number of barbs on beaver hairs that make them naturally better - it's also the fact that beaver hair is finer, which means that when it is being felted, it winds up being more dense than rabbit felt does. To my knowledge, they haven't done anything about that. -M

 

[babs]

The newb here is learning...

Good stuff.. So I get the impression a great fur felt has very fine hairs, packed super dense and if so chosen, pounced to a super smooth hand.. Unless of course it was intended to be one of those "furry" hats.

I think I posed the question a long time ago when I first joined as to if there were any moderns comparing favorably in felt quality, finish quality and shape to the "greats" in vintage hats, and naturally my responses were Akubra Feds or Campdrafts, or a custom hat.. Granted I think the custom hatters are pretty much the only folks left making them "like they used to".

 

[babs]

John Penmann makes both beaver and rabbit hats, but he prices beaver higher because of the higher quality. In his case the variables are all the same as they are made by the same factory and finished by him in the same way. In messages and posts by him and owners of his hats I was told me that his rabbit is of high quality, but not as high as his beaver.

I'm a fan of his facebook page.. He does some super nice work. Wouldn't mind having a Penmann. So he does the felting from raw fur to finished hat all the way then? Wow that's a lot of skills.

 

[mayserwegener]

Veering slightly into near fftopic: territory, in the 1936 hat catalog Feltfan posted http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=44749&page=3 there is one entire page of "Belgian beaver" hats. I can assure you that, in 1936 -and even in 1836, I would think-, there were NO beavers at all in Belgium. Rabbits aplenty, though. In fact, I've recently been informed that Akubra uses "Belgian hare" in their hats. That I could -perhaps- believe, even if "hare" might in fact turn out to be rabbit. It seems to be generally estabished, however, that Belgium would appear to have been, already in the 19th century, a major supplier of rabbit fur to hat makers like Stetson and Borsalino. And then there is the color "Belgium" which I first saw on the inside of a cowboy hat in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I assume that color would then come from the "natural" color of Belgian rabbit fur...

Beaver (US, Canada, Russia) and nutria (South America) were imported by Euro hat makers too.

Pounced felt is just one kind of finish. Velours and long hair finishes were also highly sought after.

RLK posted this a couple months ago and I think it is spot on.

"We greatly overestimate and even mythologize vintage quality, making large generalizations. One can certainly say the quality of the "average" hat has decreased. How can one possibly define "best" felt given the range of possible fur sources--rabbit(wild or not), hare ,muskrat,nutria, beaver,mink, etc......) thickness,stiffness,weight,length of fur and degree of smoothness the hatter aims for. Some may be better for particular uses, some preferred for style purposes and some desired for entirely subjective reasons. As to chemicals, Mercury was banned in the USA for hats in 1941, and most of us would consider many hats made after that date to be fine quality products. Many of the vintage hats beloved here were merely decent quality mass-produced products of their time, more remarkable for their style than a hypothetical felt "quality". There are only a limited number of sources currently for felts so I would imagine that some of the same raw materials go into hats of a wide range of price and perceived quality. Any piece of felt can be pounced and some are not intended to be. Some mass-production is of a very high standard and some "custom" hatters can be merely more expensive. The felt issue is really fuzzy. As a specific example, I have 7 Borsalino hats,1930's-1990's, and I can honestly state that no two have the same felt(requiring no particular expertise to detect). How can one decide which is best? Obviously some things are near-cardboard junk(even vintage examples exist). Construction quality issues are a bit more obvious. There is always a range of quality at any time not inextricably linked to price alone."

 

[Mulceber]

Good stuff.. So I get the impression a great fur felt has very fine hairs, packed super dense and if so chosen, pounced to a super smooth hand.. Unless of course it was intended to be one of those "furry" hats.

Yep, but also the number of barbs on the individual hairs, which was mentioned before. -M

 

[mayserwegener]

Good stuff.. So I get the impression a great fur felt has very fine hairs, packed super dense and if so chosen, pounced to a super smooth hand.. Unless of course it was intended to be one of those "furry" hats.

I think I posed the question a long time ago when I first joined as to if there were any moderns comparing favorably in felt quality, finish quality and shape to the "greats" in vintage hats, and naturally my responses were Akubra Feds or Campdrafts, or a custom hat.. Granted I think the custom hatters are pretty much the only folks left making them "like they used to".

So velours and long hair finishes can't be great too?

 

[Dewhurst]

Wouldn't mind having a Penmann. So he does the felting from raw fur to finished hat all the way then? Wow that's a lot of skills.

John Penman does not produce his own felt bodies (I can't tell if you thought he did or if the sentence just came out funny?). He purchases them from a manufacturer.