Misconceptions of World War II

[Pompidou]

I'm sure I read somewhere, may even have been on the Lounge, that the sticks were always more common than the drums, the image of the latter being more a Hollywood thing than reality. I'm sure I also read the drums were much more prone to the sticking?

It was in the Public Enemies thread, because Public Enemies opted for the more realistic sticks than drums, despite drums really capturing the public imagination of the era.

 

[dr greg]

Surprisingly, 6th grade was as close as we ever got to the reality of war; it's the only time I recall the Holocaust being discussed in any great detail, and it was also the only time that the atomic bombings were really looked at in any detail further than "we dropped atom bombs on Japan. A lot of people died. Japan surrendered." Even then, the ethnic/racial aspects of the Holocaust were conveniently glossed over, and to this day I still know people with whom I went to school who believe that Judaism is simply a religion, and who think that the Jews who died in WWII were solely the target of a religious intolerance campaign.

Perhaps this is just regional-- I went to junior high and high school in Oklahoma-- but there's my two cents.

I don't wish to start a firestorm here, but Judaism is definitely a 'religion' and not a strict racial designation: I used to get my piroshkis from a Russian Jewish deli, where the brothers who ran it were all blue-eyed redheads with blonde wives, and all as orthodox as you could get, I know Israelis who look as Nordic as Vikings, and as far removed from a Sephardim as is racially possible..the classic 'Jew' as depicted in Nazi propaganda was specific to Central European Jews whose base is often considered to be a nomadic people called Khazars who adopted the faith in the time of Charlemagne and had no contact at all with say, the Falashas...the idea that anti-semitism is racial is a political construct.

 

[Widebrim]

I don't wish to start a firestorm here, but Judaism is definitely a 'religion' and not a strict racial designation: I used to get my piroshkis from a Russian Jewish deli, where the brothers who ran it were all blue-eyed redheads with blonde wives, and all as orthodox as you could get, I know Israelis who look as Nordic as Vikings, and as far removed from a Sephardim as is racially possible..the classic 'Jew' as depicted in Nazi propaganda was specific to Central European Jews whose base is often considered to be a nomadic people called Khazars who adopted the faith in the time of Charlemagne and had no contact at all with say, the Falashas...the idea that anti-semitism is racial is a political construct.

Not to mention Ethiopian Jews, who obviously do not fit the "typical" Central/Eastern European ethnic cast. (For many years, the Latter Day Saints religion bordered on being an ethnic designation due to the inter-marriage of many of its adherents, especially in Utah.) Yet it is apparant that to many Jews, Judaism is not just a religion, but a way of life and a cultural identification which is carried from one generation to the next. A person could be atheist and still refer to her/himself as being Jewish (and quite a few do), simply due to having been descended from a line of people who identified themselves as such, even if they did not practice the Jewish religion.
Sorry to be fftopic:

 

[Aristaeus]

I believe the Tommygun had a reputation for jamming and was best used fired in short bursts. Probably this jamming was what made it ill suited as a combat weapon.

It was not the Thompson that jammed but rather the 50 round drums that were disliked because of their tendency to rattle and jam. They were replaced with a 30 round clip and a 40 round clip (two 20 round clips welded together).
As far as being obselete it was quite the contrary. It was the quality and high reliability that made them obselete in the eyes of the military. They wanted a weapon that was fast easy and cheap to make (a cheaply made disposible weapon).

 

[Harp]

By the 1940s, the Tommygun was considered outdated and old-fashioned. ... I believe the Tommygun had a reputation for jamming and was best used fired in short bursts. Probably this jamming was what made it ill suited as a combat weapon.

Thompson is actually a fine combat weapon; gives and takes punishment,
and is quite reliable when properly maintained. Tommy saw American service during Vietnam; also NATO fielded through 1970s.

 

[BaggyPants]

That said, the Tommygun was still used extensively during the war in the smaller, 30-round 'stick' magazines, instead of the big, 50-round drum-magazines, popularly seen in 1930s gangster-movies.

Actually, the 20 round box magazines were far more common with US forces, with relatively fewer 30 round box magazines seeing action. The British forces seem to have had many more 30 round magazines in use. Strange really, as the 20 round box magazine original to the M1928A1 version, which was the most common type used by British and Commonwealth troops, and the 30 round box magazine was introduced to be used with the M1/M1A1 version, which was issued to US forces mainly. Seems the issue of magazines was a bit contrary.

As someone who works with live section 5 Thompson M1A1 sub-machine guns in the UK, I have yet to find any cases of them jamming any more than any of the other weapons we use. They are a superb piece of kit, easily maintained and cleaned. Most problems we have with them, and other WWII SMG's, are caused by users who are inept at using them, though they'll tell you they're fully trained in there use.

 

[Guttersnipe]

I don't wish to start a firestorm here, but Judaism is definitely a 'religion' and not a strict racial designation: I used to get my piroshkis from a Russian Jewish deli, where the brothers who ran it were all blue-eyed redheads with blonde wives, and all as orthodox as you could get, I know Israelis who look as Nordic as Vikings, and as far removed from a Sephardim as is racially possible..the classic 'Jew' as depicted in Nazi propaganda was specific to Central European Jews whose base is often considered to be a nomadic people called Khazars who adopted the faith in the time of Charlemagne and had no contact at all with say, the Falashas...the idea that anti-semitism is racial is a political construct.

Not to mention Ethiopian Jews, who obviously do not fit the "typical" Central/Eastern European ethnic cast. (For many years, the Latter Day Saints religion bordered on being an ethnic designation due to the inter-marriage of many of its adherents, especially in Utah.) Yet it is apparant that to many Jews, Judaism is not just a religion, but a way of life and a cultural identification which is carried from one generation to the next. A person could be atheist and still refer to her/himself as being Jewish (and quite a few do), simply due to having been descended from a line of people who identified themselves as such, even if they did not practice the Jewish religion.
Sorry to be fftopic:

dr greg, I agree with a lot of what you said regarding the diversity of individuals who collectively make up the Jewish people, and Widebrim covered things pretty well too in terms of referencing the cultural aspect of Judaism as an identity. However, I would point out that while Jews come from many varied ethnic and racial backgrounds, there is a distinction to be aware of. The "race or religion" debate has long been abandoned by scholars; the generally accepted notion is now that the Jewish identity is an umbrella for many outlets of cultural/ethnic/religious expressions. The complexity/duality of the definition comes from a history of living in diaspora as a distinctive minority group, often set apart by ethnicity in relation to majority populations, language (Yiddish and/or Hebrew), foreign cultural traditions in relation to majority populations, and non-Christian/Muslim status.

And, to tie this all back into the thread . . . one common misconception is that antisemitism in Germany was a relatively minor issue in Germany/Austria before the Nazis came to power. In fact, codified antisemitic laws existed in Germany and the Austrian Empire right until 1918 and there had been a number of political movements, both before and after WWI, that had antisemitism as part of their core platforms.

 

[brspiritus]

I did a bit of research on the German American Bund at one point and from what I could gather, the FBI kept a watch on them, but ultimately didn't think they were much of a threat.

Their organizational decendants are still alive and well today and besides mouthing off they're not much of a threat. My friend and I were staying in a hotel in Catonsville, Md back in '08 when a group from NSM88 stayed there. Imagine having to share your hotel with about 100 neo-nazis! And my friend was black to boot.

Here's a little known fact I gleaned after living in the Philippines for 3 years. I think the American perception is we "saved" the Philippines from brutal Japanese occupation when the reality was right before the landings at Leyte, the Japanese only held on to the major cities, the rest belonged to the guerrilas.

 

[LizzieMaine]

And, to tie this all back into the thread . . . one common misconception is that antisemitism in Germany was a relatively minor issue in Germany/Austria before the Nazis came to power. In fact, codified antisemitic laws existed in Germany and the Austrian Empire right until 1918 and there had been a number of political movements, both before and after WWI, that had antisemitism as part of their core platforms.

Well said. The Dreyfus affair in France in the 1890s was further indication that it wasn't just Germany or Austria-Hungary that was awash in anti-Semitism during Hitler's formative years. Europe was saturated with it thruout the end of the 19th Century and the early years of the 20th. Hitler merely found a way to exploit this to his own ends.

 

[Doctor Strange]

"Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims...
And everybody hates the Jews!"

- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week" (c.1966)

Anti-Semitism has always been with us, probably going back to before there were even Jews (just Israelites and Hebrews). It is always more rampant in difficult times, when a convenient scapegoat is necessary, like the 19th and 20th centuries. And anybody who thinks "that we're beyond all that now" hasn't learned the lessons of history. (<== Note classic Jewish paranoia!)

The term that seemed to cover just what the Jews are - a religion, nation, class, race - back in my religious school days was "peoplehood". But I don't know if that's the current thinking...

 

[Edward]

It was in the Public Enemies thread, because Public Enemies opted for the more realistic sticks than drums, despite drums really capturing the public imagination of the era.

That was it!

I don't wish to start a firestorm here, but Judaism is definitely a 'religion' and not a strict racial designation: I used to get my piroshkis from a Russian Jewish deli, where the brothers who ran it were all blue-eyed redheads with blonde wives, and all as orthodox as you could get, I know Israelis who look as Nordic as Vikings, and as far removed from a Sephardim as is racially possible..the classic 'Jew' as depicted in Nazi propaganda was specific to Central European Jews whose base is often considered to be a nomadic people called Khazars who adopted the faith in the time of Charlemagne and had no contact at all with say, the Falashas...the idea that anti-semitism is racial is a political construct.

With this I agree. Interestingly enough, UK law recognises and protects the Jewish identity as both race and religion.

Well said. The Dreyfus affair in France in the 1890s was further indication that it wasn't just Germany or Austria-Hungary that was awash in anti-Semitism during Hitler's formative years. Europe was saturated with it thruout the end of the 19th Century and the early years of the 20th. Hitler merely found a way to exploit this to his own ends.

Exactly. My understanding is that it goes back even further than the 19th Century. It was rife in Elizabethan England, for one (thus the rather unflattering portrayals of the Jewish Male provided by both Marlowe and Shakespeare). I'm sure I read somewhere too that more Jews were killed in the Jewish pograms in Russia than by Hitler?
Can't recall if it has been mentioned already, but the iconic status of Winston Churchill must be among the great myths of WW2. Even aside from the fact that he was an extremely unpleasant person being still so often glossed over, he was not actually universally popular in his day, which is not the way orthodox history seems to have portrayed him.

 

[martinsantos]

A interesting misconception of WWII before those days (newspaper article translated and published in january 1937), by a certain Mr W. Churchill. That the airplanes wouldn't be a decisive weapon in case of a war. UK wouldn't have to apply any efforts about airplanes, and the navy would be the really decisive power.

I think Churchill changed his opinion not much later.

Well said. The Dreyfus affair in France in the 1890s was further indication that it wasn't just Germany or Austria-Hungary that was awash in anti-Semitism during Hitler's formative years. Europe was saturated with it thruout the end of the 19th Century and the early years of the 20th. Hitler merely found a way to exploit this to his own ends.

I agree. One of the usual spots by French writer Anatole France was the anti-semitism in France. He shows the anti-semitism as a plague in almost all texts I readed from him (he wasn't a Jew, but atheist). To him, one of the signals of the inevitable tragedies that would occur (specially in "The island of penguins").

 

[dhermann1]

I'm not aware of Churchill ever dismissing the impact of airplanes. After all, he had about 100 hours of flying lessons in 1913! He was in the forefront of adopting any and all innovative technologies for military use.
I think the opposite is more the case. The Zeppelin bombing raids of WW 1, while having very little military impact, terrified the heck out of the populace. And it was Mr Unpreparedness himself, Stanley Baldwin, who said, "The bomber will always get through."

 

[Edward]

Churchill was involved in pioneering quite a lot of things later used to great effect during WW2, including concentration camps and poison gas.

 

[Cobden]

Not quite true - Churchill wasn't in favour of poison gasses, preferring tear gas and others that would cause short term uncomfortable feeling rather than long term damage (which is also somewhat militarily sound). The use of poison gas against the Kurds in 1920 is, however, a complete myth. The idea of using tear gas was mooted, but that's about as far as it went.

Concentration camps predate the Boer War by quite some time, though prior to the Second War it's worth remembering that the deaths that occured in such were a rather different kettle of fish to those later, being attributable more to official stupidity or callousness rather then actual malice. It is, of course, debatable as to whether this matters (dying of starvation due to a logistical foul up and dying of starvation because they want you to die - you still end up dead)

 

[dr greg]

I'm sure I read somewhere too that more Jews were killed in the Jewish pograms in Russia than by Hitler?
.

Numbers are just numbers and can't portray individual tragedies, but definitely not on the same scale,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire

 

[Harp]

Can't recall if it has been mentioned already, but the iconic status of Winston Churchill must be among the great myths of WW2. Even aside from the fact that he was an extremely unpleasant person being still so often glossed over, he was not actually universally popular in his day, which is not the way orthodox history seems to have portrayed him.

Perhaps a ba***rd opportunist cad who wrote about his kills,
an astigmatic hack politico embittered by rejection; whom later
resisted a more graceful stage exit, and too soon and deep in his cups.

Winston Churchill as a singular figure of the past century;
however brushed and groomed by orthodoxy, nevertheless cast a spectacular
life record and whatever currency History accords his ghost today hardly
seems unearned lucre.

 

[Widebrim]

Perhaps a ba***rd opportunist cad who wrote about his kills,
an astigmatic hack politico embittered by rejection; whom later
resisted a more graceful stage exit, and too soon and deep in his cups.

Winston Churchill as a singular figure of the past century;
however brushed and groomed by orthodoxy, nevertheless cast a spectacular
life record and whatever currency History accords his ghost today hardly
seems unearned lucre.

Concise and well-said, Harp.

 

[Zemke Fan]

Okay, folks. If this comes off the rail ONE MORE TIME, it's closed. Am I clear?

 

[Lincsong]

The fact that World War II surplus Jeeps and Quonset huts were being sold well into the 1970's shows that all the rationing of goods and material during the war in the United States was unneeded.