Midnight blue

[Orgetorix]

Very well then, the color of the lapels lacks the contrast and pop that the midnight blue with the black lapels does--even if it does have a midnight blue tie to match. The all MD tuxedo is shown in daylight which also might have something to do with the way it looks but in artificial light it would look strange next to a black tuxedo or even one in MB with black lapels.
In short, the lapels are not supposed to match. Even in the all black tuxedo it doesn't match texture or color---if it did it would simply be a suit. The same is true of the MB. The accents are supposed to be different.
It all depends on what you like though. I'll take accents over matching.

I guess I'd just say that in artificial light, the midnight tux's lapels wouldn't match the body fabric any more than the black lapels of a black tuxedo match the black body fabric. Of course there is difference in texture and sheen. That's a no-brainer, and I agree it's supposed to be that way. The midnight blue dinner jacket on Matt (the guy whose photo I posted) would look strange indeed if it had lapels made of the same fabric as the body. It's color disharmony that I have a problem with. I, respectfully, and knowing I disagree with The Authorities, say it's not supposed to be that way.

 

[reetpleat]

********
Truer words have not been written.

Hey, I said that last week. Interestingly, I would almost say that the shawl collar might still save it from being a suit. But I saw a sixties suit from Louis Roth that had ind of a sharkskin pattern and a shawl collar. Normally, I would have snagged it due to rarity. But it did not look very good and they wanted sixty bucks, as opposed to the usual twenty to thirty of most stores.

 

[Orgetorix]

One other argument that occurred to me a couple days ago: Midnight blue is favored for dinner jackets because it's supposedly "blacker than black" under artificial light. So wouldn't one want one's whole tuxedo to be "blacker than black?" Why would anyone want to combine a less-black cloth with a blacker-than-black cloth in the same garment? A midnight tuxedo with black lapels makes no more sense than a black tuxedo with gray lapels.

 

[anon`]

One other argument that occurred to me a couple days ago: Midnight blue is favored for dinner jackets because it's supposedly "blacker than black" under artificial light. So wouldn't one want one's whole tuxedo to be "blacker than black?" Why would anyone want to combine a less-black cloth with a blacker-than-black cloth in the same garment? A midnight tuxedo with black lapels makes no more sense than a black tuxedo with gray lapels.

Because it would seem that black grosgrain/silk/satin, unlike wool, actually looks black, even under artificial light.

On the period midnight blue specimens with black lapels that I've seen, the matching between cloth and facing has been excellent, only becoming readily apparent when in sunlight, or very bright artificial light. Under normal, interior lighting conditions, the whole thing looks, well, black.

 

[John in Covina]

It's back to he whether you want contrast, what type of contrast and to what degree of contrast.

 

[Bugsy]

I just saw "The Reluctant Debutante" on TCM. In one scene, Rex Harrison walks into a room in a stunning midnight blue tail coat. Quite a show stopper.

 

[dogrocketp]

Midnight Blue for you!

I have a vintage midnight blue tuxedo that I had a tailor rebuild. Our guess was early forties manufacture. It has Satin lapels, a shawl collar, and one button. I believe it is the finest looking dinner suit one could have, and I have several. Please do take the time to find a cummerbund with a button on the back of the front panel. This holds it perfectly in place. I would also recommend an extra button in the front of the trousers to hold the shirt in place. All this gives you a much better look, unless you have a weak bladder! You can't undo it in a hurry!

 

[jamespowers]

Because it would seem that black grosgrain/silk/satin, unlike wool, actually looks black, even under artificial light.

On the period midnight blue specimens with black lapels that I've seen, the matching between cloth and facing has been excellent, only becoming readily apparent when in sunlight, or very bright artificial light. Under normal, interior lighting conditions, the whole thing looks, well, black.

Exactly the reason to have black lapels.

 

[jamespowers]

It's color disharmony that I have a problem with. I, respectfully, and knowing I disagree with The Authorities, say it's not supposed to be that way.

Then I just can't convince you. [huh]

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Last weekend, I was at a very large vintage clothing store ('Iguana Vintage') with a long rack full of vintage '30s-'50s tuxedo jackets. A close look at them all (in incandescent light) revealed the following:


-- midnight blue tux jackets with smooth satin lapels were in midnight blue silk.

-- midnight blue tux jackets with ribbed grosgrain lapels were in black silk.


There were no exceptions to this 'rule'.


Furthermore, I have come across plenty of vintage midnight blue satin bowties and cummerbunds (as well as black ones), whereas the vintage grosgrain bowties and cummerbunds I've seen have always been in black.


.

 

[Orgetorix]

Then I just can't convince you. [huh]

Nope, nor I you. Nothing wrong with that! Differing but well-informed and well-reasoned opinions is one of the things that make this place enjoyable.

 

[reetpleat]

So, back to this idea of a grosgrain shawl collar. Still seems odd. never seen one. Seems like it would look funny.

Above, is a photo of a chap in glasses and the accompanying text claims it is a grosgrain collar. It is a shawl collar. I can't tell from the photos. Did the poster know the person personally, or can they tell from the photo?

I just don't see how the ribbing would look right on a shawl collar, if for tradition's sake if nothing else.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

So, back to this idea of a grosgrain shawl collar. Still seems odd. never seen one. Seems like it would look funny.

I've seen them on old European tuxedos (German, French and Spanish).

.

 

[jamespowers]

Last weekend, I was at a very large vintage clothing store ('Iguana Vintage') with a long rack full of vintage '30s-'50s tuxedo jackets. A close look at them all (in incandescent light) revealed the following:


-- midnight blue tux jackets with smooth satin lapels were in midnight blue silk.

I can show you plenty of exceptions to this rule in my closet.

 

[jamespowers]

I just don't see how the ribbing would look right on a shawl collar, if for tradition's sake if nothing else.

The grosgrain wouldn't look right on a shawl colar. [huh]

 

[Lincsong]

I can show you plenty of exceptions to this rule in my closet.

:eusa_doh: :eusa_doh:

 

[Visconde]

I went shopping yesterday and bought some fabric.

I hope this will do, total price was $100

Black grosgrain satin

Midnight Blue wool (not quite sure of the weave)

3th fabric is for a pair of plus-fours and waistcoat.

It should be ready by new years eve.

I tried my best with the picture, it's very hard to photograph this.

with kind regards

Visconde

 

[chanteuseCarey]

Bump.

Great to see this picture, and find this thread. This midnight blue set of PofW tails is also of course pictured on blacktieguide. I am particularly jazzed to discover this thread as I took my bf for a black DB peak lapel tux and he ended up getting TWO vintage tuxedos. The second was a midnight blue satin shawl collar DB of WWII vintage. Very William Powell.

I didn't know the two were possible, it's so hard to see in pictures.

Anyway, the duke of windsor had his with black lapels, so I think I'll have it that way.

with kind regards
Visconde

EDIT: blacktieguide.com

 

[chanteuseCarey]

Yes, the price for a vintage tuxedo my bf and I discovered just this Monday in fact, was SO good that he bought TWO.

He had previously after much hunting, narrowed the modern choices down to Ralph Lauren Blue Label.

Actually a great point. Before going custom I would take the time to search for a vintage piece. Vintage tuxedos are very affordable.

 

[chanteuseCarey]

Paddy, I know you'll pardon my french here, but... well...

Damn. (thud)

Just 'look' at 'how black' that blue looks under artificial light (I used a flash and close up to show the actual 'blueness' of the fabric). Allegedly, it was Edward VIII (8th), the infamous Duke of Windsor who abdicated for the love of an American lady, who launched the trend of the midnight blue dinner suit, as it appeared blacker under artificial light at night-time.