meditations on doing yesterday's music today

[Fletch]

Lindy hoppers are the reason I lost all interest in Lindy.

I'll agree that there is little casual, social dancing to big band music. The interest today, and the reason for the revival, is mostly in the skills involved.

Case in point: the dance history movement of our time effaces the great orchestras and musicians in favor of the dance stars. It's a way of keeping interest alive, I suppose - if the Savoy Ballroom were still thought of as the home of Chick Webb and Ella Fitzgerald, comparatively few would revere its legend.

 

[Fletch]

I don't know if this will pull anything together, but...

Being a musician almost always means playing with others.
That means respecting the common tradition.
That, in turn, means leaving behind what hasn't lasted.

What makes this tough is that it's art in some ways and totally-not-art in others, and no one really knows where one begins and the other ends.

Being a collector - a seeker of obscurity - as well as a musician - a striver towards communication - is natural in some ways, but totally schizophrenic and filled with contradictions in others.

I would tell young students not to listen to transitional musics. Early swing, third stream, whatever. Yes, I love them. Because I love them, I know that they're as irrelevant as they are fascinating. They will take you down a rabbit hole, a world of unreality where you will always be confronted with what got lost and wonder why.

What you must remember is that there isn't any why. Yes, esthetics are arbitrary. But that doesn't make them any less real, or any less meaningful, or any less definitive of our common tradition.

At the end of the day, you have to go one way or the other. The artist who isn't a sheer dazzling comet of original vision and paradigm-breaking creativity has got to follow the common practice as closely as he can, and give it the very best of his passion and expression, even when he knows there is so much more to be said outside of it.

Unless you are one of those startlingly original creators - and for the record, I'm not - leave what's been lost, lost. It will only lure you off the map, and you, too, will be lost.

 

[Yeps]

If you want good dance music with that ineffable swing to it, you gotta go where people are dancing and the bands are playing for them.

[video=youtube;4esllhdeT8s]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4esllhdeT8s[/video]

[video=youtube;vje3gO950-k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vje3gO950-k&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;BnYiLXSVDS0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnYiLXSVDS0&feature=related[/video]

[video=youtube;sojxdiFp3fQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sojxdiFp3fQ[/video]

[video=youtube;DmUyINr1vbY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmUyINr1vbY&feature=related[/video]

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'll agree that there is little casual, social dancing to big band music. The interest today, and the reason for the revival, is mostly in the skills involved.

Case in point: the dance history movement of our time effaces the great orchestras and musicians in favor of the dance stars. It's a way of keeping interest alive, I suppose - if the Savoy Ballroom were still thought of as the home of Chick Webb and Ella Fitzgerald, comparatively few would revere its legend.

The biggest part of this is that the tradition of *learning to dance* no longer exists. The couples who danced to the dance music of the Era had, for the most part, learned to do it as youths: box-stepping their way around a church hall or a school gym at a "social." And those who didn't learn to dance as kids picked it up later on -- every town had a School of Dance taught by some rump-sprung coast-defender vaudevillian where you could pick up the basics of the waltz and the fox trot. And if you were really desperate, you could send in to one of those ads in the back of the Radio Guide for a set of those cardboard footprint charts that taught you how to dance at home, No Partner Needed.

None of that exists anymore because traditional social dancing doesn't exist anymore. Traditional social dancing doesn't exist anymore because it doesn't need to -- in the Era, it was an excuse for young couples to learn to relate to the opposite sex in a dignified, appropriate way with a dignified, appropriate amount of physical contact. Nowdays, such an idea is considered ridiculous - skip the preliminaries, go straight to the main event. Except for those of us who hold to an atavistic view of such things. We may be lost, but we're perfectly happy to stay that way if the alternative is assimilation by a culture that makes no sense to us.

 

[Undertow]

Being a musician almost always means playing with others.
That means respecting the common tradition.
That, in turn, means leaving behind what hasn't lasted...

I see what you're saying. You have a great point about being a collector first and then a communicator - that is a difficult mix.

And I suppose you're also saying that in order to play some of these interesting, possibly obscure pieces, you need another artist/collector in order for it to even work. The odds of that, naturally, are abysmal. One cannot hope to meet two or more of those folks in a room.

Society does play a role in this, I would say. Why learn those obscure bits when you could get a nice, placid Swing sound, do it justice, let the dancers dance and move on?

 

[Fletch]

I hope you have the chance to hear Des Moines' Ballyhoo Foxtrot Orchestra sometime. I do a lot of their sax and clarinet work. We play mostly for private functions, but I think we strike a nice balance between faithfulness and relevance.

 

[dhermann1]

Here's something that bugs me, regarding that. Most of the swing dancers, and thus most of the bands, nowadays just want to dance like their asses are on fire. And the bands all play swing WAY too fast. I call it the Louis Prima effect. Louis Prima was great, but every young jazz musician in America wanting to BE him, is not. Calm down people!
And on the very few occasions when they play something slow, like an actual foxtrot, the dancers think it's an opportunity to show off the fancy steps they know, instead of the "real" purpose of a slow foxtrot or ballad, which is to get as close as you can to your sweety and feel the music between you. I REALLY miss the playing of nice mellow swing ballads.
End of rant.

 

[Fletch]

Again, look to the lost social function. As Lizzie notes, back when we were all starved for sex and entertainment, dancing mattered as a civilized interaction and a romantic ritual, and the music and bands mattered as things-in-themselves.

There was room in that scenario for medium fox trot ballads. Now that people have options, the point of dancing is dancing - at a fairly high level of energy and skill. The music is totally secondary.

Comparing this scene to ballroom days is like comparing a Sunday chicken dinner to a hot wing cookoff.

I personally love playing for dancers. But you get very few today unless your music is narrowly focused.

 

[Flat Foot Floey]

Yes during the neo swing revival everybody tried to sound like Louis Prima but even louder and faster. Like Gene Krupa on drugs or something.

I liked the Squirrel Nut Zippers because they didn't have the same sounds as the others. I found them quite original.

 

[LizzieMaine]

There was room in that scenario for medium fox trot ballads. Now that people have options, the point of dancing is dancing - at a fairly high level of energy and skill. The music is totally secondary.

Dancing in the Era, with the exception of the jitterbug stuff, which was never more than a minor subculture, was a social ritual. Modern dancing, even in the styles of the Era, is an individualistic exhibition.

 

[John in Covina]

Dancing in the Era, with the exception of the jitterbug stuff, which was never more than a minor subculture, was a social ritual. Modern dancing, even in the styles of the Era, is an individualistic exhibition.

From what I have seen of current "modern" club dancing it's a complex amalgom of sexual competition, dirty dancing leading to the hook up for coitus amonst self centered self indulgent children in adult bodies.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Sort of like a mandrill jumping up and down and slapping the ground while his butt turns red.

 

[Undertow]

I hope you have the chance to hear Des Moines' Ballyhoo Foxtrot Orchestra sometime. I do a lot of their sax and clarinet work. We play mostly for private functions, but I think we strike a nice balance between faithfulness and relevance.

Ooo, thanks Fletch! I will check into that! The lady and I like excuses to get out and hear good music.

 

[GHT]

The biggest part of this is that the tradition of *learning to dance* no longer exists. The couples who danced to the dance music of the Era had, for the most part, learned to do it as youths: box-stepping their way around a church hall or a school gym at a "social." And those who didn't learn to dance as kids picked it up later on -- every town had a School of Dance taught by some rump-sprung coast-defender vaudevillian where you could pick up the basics of the waltz and the fox trot. And if you were really desperate, you could send in to one of those ads in the back of the Radio Guide for a set of those cardboard footprint charts that taught you how to dance at home, No Partner Needed.

None of that exists anymore because traditional social dancing doesn't exist anymore. Traditional social dancing doesn't exist anymore because it doesn't need to

I blame Chubby Checker, before the Twist, girls danced with their boyfriends, after the Twist, they danced with their handbags. (purses)
Post Chubby Checker, it was commonplace to see groups of girls dancing some disco style, improvised, arm flailment. They would do this in a circle with their handbags on the dance floor, in the middle of the circle.

 

[Talbot]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. Sort of like a mandrill jumping up and down and slapping the ground while his butt turns red.

Sums it up nicely...

 

[Guttersnipe]

OK, I really did misspeak there. I will stand by the assertion that most really good bassists don't slap. It's more a classical instrument today than it was decades ago, and that's a profane technique in classical circles. Even in jazz, it's often thought of as gimmicky now - it's embraced only by rockabilly, which is really a cult.

Not to put too fine of a point on things, but as an upright player, from reading this statement, it would seem that you don't know a lot about upright techniques.

Combining slap back plucking with pizzicato playing is key to jazz upright bass, especially when you are taling about older jazz (e.g., pre-electric bass). Slap back plucking, a technique pioneered by big band orchestra players seeking more volume in a pre-amplification era, is also a cornerstone of slap style.

 

[Chas]

Here's something that bugs me, regarding that. Most of the swing dancers, and thus most of the bands, nowadays just want to dance like their asses are on fire. And the bands all play swing WAY too fast. I call it the Louis Prima effect. Louis Prima was great, but every young jazz musician in America wanting to BE him, is not. Calm down people!
And on the very few occasions when they play something slow, like an actual foxtrot, the dancers think it's an opportunity to show off the fancy steps they know, instead of the "real" purpose of a slow foxtrot or ballad, which is to get as close as you can to your sweety and feel the music between you. I REALLY miss the playing of nice mellow swing ballads.
End of rant.

Actually, you can blame the Gap ad that was popular during the early days of the swing revival. Most ppl who got caught up in the swing revival thought that dancing to swing music was about aerials, dips and that sort of thing. I can't tell you how many times I came close to getting a shoe through the head from those idiots; almost got into a fight a couple of times. Aerials were never done on the social dance floor - only in competition, performance/demonstration or in a jam. Aerials are also dangerous. One friend of mine, an expert dancer who is well known in the swing scene, broke her neck and spent months in a halo device practicing aerials.

Then they found out how difficult Lindy and Balboa were to actually do well, and they dropped out. The downside of that is that the swing dance scene became a cliquey scene and not a social thing per se.

I don't think that I was ever at a swing dance night where any ballads were played by the DJs or bands. I tried it a couple of times, and the response was lukewarm at best.

 

[Chas]

OK, I really did misspeak there. I will stand by the assertion that most really good bassists don't slap. It's more a classical instrument today than it was decades ago, and that's a profane technique in classical circles. Even in jazz, it's often thought of as gimmicky now - it's embraced only by rockabilly, which is really a cult.

So I guess the great Milt Hinton was a cultist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lyOWuc0T4E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L0HDXlvTZ4
[video=youtube;CkwuH1AYlIQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkwuH1AYlIQ[/video]

The great Thelma Terry was also a slap bassist.

 

[Fletch]

Chas, Milt was an original. I've got records of him slapping as early as 1933.

Guttersnipe, is it possible that being from San Francisco makes you more openminded about swing styles in jazz than a lot of players? Even good ones?

 

[Fletch]

For me the concept is that new artists are capable of brining new vision to old styles.

The idea that the era is closed and we are culturally and maybe genetically too far past a certain style seems well in a way narcisisstic and self serving.

Any age is narcissistic when it comes to older styles (of anything). It tells me something that unless an old style has some social and class cachet, it is Over. Mozart is not Over, but much of Ellington is Over, and almost all of Bix.

Sometimes even class is not enough. The same well heeled folks who danced to Handel's bourrées in 1750 danced to society bands like Leo Reisman's playing Broadway's latest in 1925. Handel is enshrined, Reisman known only to scholars of show music. (There are no scholars of dance music.)