May Day Boycott

[BellyTank]

Oops... Did I say that out loud...?

Manners... about as useful as a bag of broken spanners.

B
T

 

[scotrace]

Not just border towns

Our teensy town in Ohio has seen an influx of Central Americans in the past 5 years or so. I wrote about it here.. (yes, they really did pee on the floor of the grocery store) The cultural clashes are the sort of problem that suddenly shows up, unwanted, like BB's in your scrambled eggs. No choice but to stop what you're doing and find a workable solution.

The distinction is clear between the people who are the subject of this thread and our immigrant ancestors (including those brought here in chains). This group is breaking the law. It's not that they're Mexcan or Brazillian or Portugese or African or Italian or Guatemalan (as in my own community) or New Zealanders. It's not that they're doing unpleasant work. It's that they have entered illegally, and have the cojones to demand "rights," or that US code be changed to accomodate them.
I think it's so that the root of the problem is the degree of comfort US companies have gained with hiring such workers cheaply. Not just companies, but private citizens who employ them to clean their homes, watch their children, etc.
Here's the thing: I don't know anyone personally who has any problem with a person who lives in difficult conditions of poverty, violence, drugs and corruption wanting to escape and come to the United States. Our country has been built by such people, and we traditionally and willingly make room for them. But don't import the ugliness with you. Don't break our laws and demand we change them. The opportunities for that person here are real, tangible, exploitable. But for heaven's sake, play by the rules!

 

[jp*81]

Hmmm.....That's funny.

I noticed that the Katt in the Hat is from Florida. I don't know where you live in Florida but...

I was going to comment that maybe you have to live near the Mexican Border to see the negative effects. I made comments earlier about living with the illegals in San Diego, and there are a lot of Mexican immigrants in Florida too along with other nationalities (Puerto Ricans - I know they are a US Territory, Cubans, Haitians, etc.) and they all have different customs that we do not have. I know they aren't all illegal.

My husband is Puerto Rican, and he shares the same family values as they do, but he does not conduct himself in silly ways like they do. I know they are just proud (with all the "Boricua" and obnoxiously loud Spanish) but I wish they could live there life more subtly and keep that to themselves.

You took the words out of my mouth scotrace.

 

[Lauren]

If you're missing school on May Day the only reason should be to dance around the Maypole. Or maybe gather wild flowers.

 

[ArrowCollarMan]

It seems like a lot of people here have neglected that illegals actually are vital to alot of the economy. I've heard that they steal jobs from Americans and blah but what jobs are they doing? Did you have your life set out to pick strawberrys in a feild or clip hedges and those darn illegals stole it? The fact of the matter is they offer cheap labor so people will hire them.

Most American citizens don't work out on the farm like they used to and with cheap migrant labor they can sell and produce things at a higher cost. If you ever go out to a farm land all you see is Mexicans picking produce and putting it in trucks. I remember when I used to live up in No. Cal. and my family and I would drive through Salinas (farmland) and migrant workers picking stuff in the feilds.

Some people are totally against it and I have actually heard some good reasons other than "stealing jobs". Using tax-payers money...I have a cousin in Oceanside, CA who says her school is full of illegals. And, since its closer to the border, there are illegals everywhere from the sounds of it!

I'm not really sure where I stand on the issue.

 

[Brad Bowers]

My brother has lost work to immigrants. I won't say they were illegal, because I don't know that for a fact. He's a painter, and he has bid on jobs many times over the past year, only to be turned down because the immigrants will do it for dirt cheap wages. Meanwhile, my brother's trying to put food on the table for his wife and newborn son.

Don't tell me that he, like most Americans, wants too much money for his labor. My brother prices himself too low, if you ask me. Americans have just adopted a mentality to get by as cheaply as they can, and if that includes hiring immigrants who work for a couple of bucks an hour, then fine. Never mind the damage it does to other Americans trying to eke out a living.

Brad

 

[Baron Kurtz]

That's capitalism ...

bk

 

[Brad Bowers]

That's capitalism ...

Yep, bk, that's the way it works. Which also means there are no easy answers.

For me, I have no problem if these folks are here legally. Some of them, like La Raza, do want to change our culture, and are here as part of an implicit attempt at reconquista by the Mexican government. But the rest of them, no problems, beyond my neighbors playing their music too loud and honking their horns for people to come outside (called a "Mexican doorbell," so I hear). But those folks that are flagrantly breaking the law by being here, they are the ones with whom I have a problem. I can't abide lawbreakers. Question is, what do you do with 11 million of them?

Brad

 

[Pilgrim]

There is no denying that illegal immigrants (and you'll note that I have used this term consistently, as it is much more accurate than undocumented workers or other terms) are breaking the law.

It is also undeniable that many employers are breaking the law by hiring them; the measures they use to attempt to confirm the workers' status vary from situation to situation. There are many farm, manual labor and service jobs where I think we can agree immigrant labor is a big part of the labor force. It also strikes me that even legal workers in these job markets live at such a subsistence level that they often might be hard-pressed to document their status.

These workers are contributing to our economy whether or not they pay income tax. Their employers are buying materials and paying taxes, so the work performed by their employees - paid in cash or not, and illegals are not the only ones paid in cash every day - do contribute. Maybe not their "fair share", but there is something added. Is it enough? Probably not.

It is also true that many law enforcement officers stop and release people whom they have reason to believe are in the country - but in many cases, there just aren't any immigration people on duty to come get them. We have a real funding and staffing gap in enforcement - there aren't enough people to handle the load.

There are laws broken every day - they range from speeding to illegal downloads to illegal employment. State legislatures and congress make decisions all the time about which enforcement initiatives they want to fund and which ones they don't. No money = no/limited enforcement. Let's all keep our eyes on the funding and see which enforcement initiatives are funded as a result of the current debate.

 

[jp*81]

I just can't understand why some don't want to learn or accept our culture...

I lived in Japan for a year and I was definately interested in their traditions and history. I know this sounds funny but my favorite past time, while I was there, was to sit on the beach and talk to the Papasan's while we drank Sake. It was great. It forces you to learn Japanese because they don't speak English very well. I think some of them might have had other intentions, but they were always perfect gentlemen. I did a lot of other things like visiting historical places and such, but those are my favorite memories. I would have never done anything to upset them on purpose.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

So as a legal alien ... sorta ... non-resident ... what should i do to assimilate into US culture? I fear i'm the non-assimilating type (was asked to leave church at age 8). Help me out.

I agree that trying to change the US culture to be just like home would be silly. Just what should i do?

I'll start the discussion with one i think is useful for an immigrant (illegal or other): learn English ...

But i speak English already. What to do, what to do?

bk

p.s. Are these protestors saying "free health care ... only for Mexicans (name your illegal immigrant group here)" or are they saying "free health care." No addenda or caveats?

 

[jp*81]

That is why I said "some"

I have met some people (not all were Mexican, nor Hispanic) that don't want to speak English and that don't like America, so my question to them is why are they here? And if they don't like it, why not go home? That is not meant in a mean way, I feel the same way about my house. I try to make it feel comfortable and nice, but if you don't like it then leave, no feelings hurt. No one is forcing them to stay here, this isn't prison or the military. There will always be barrios and little chinas which are fine, I just don't appreciate the negative behavior. I actually love Mexican Food. Its the best. And by the way, why don't they want to be legal citizens???

I have no clue about the government aid issue.

 

[magneto]

I just can't understand why some don't want to learn or accept our culture...
I lived in Japan for a year and I was definately interested in their traditions and history ::SNIP ::

Yes JP, that first sentence (your post heading) is a generalization, but a generalization one sees on display not infrequently...

The majority of immigrants at any point in US history, well aside from those religiously persecuted, admittedly came for economic betterment; that's human nature, I can understand and accept people are here for materialistic not altruistic reasons. But for a large sector of those recent arrivals to have a seemingly unprecedented disinterest and dis-appreciation of the place that has provided you with employment, educational opportunities, a better standard of living? Even though you've lived here and enriched yourself (and taken, in aggregate, billions of US dollars out of the economy and sent them back to the "home country", let's not forget)...to reject unconditionally the language, culture, etc of the host country and have no allegience to that country whatsoever? And instilling that rejection into your children who are *born here*?[1] [2]

[1] (Let's not restrict this criticism to Latin Americans. I live in a place with a large population of residents whose ancestors originated in China, whether decades ago or recent arrivals. Their descendents--2nd, 3rd generation--describe themselves as "ABC". American-born Chinese. Think about the implications and mindset of that description. You're not considering yourself American, citizenship be damned. You're a *Chinese*, who *just happens* to be born in the US.

[2]I have spent time in CA public schools, and it is *not* uncommon for a child born here to arrive in first grade/kindergarten speaking no English, aside from a few words gleaned off TV perhaps--his parents speak no English and he and they spend their lives in a non-Anglophone ghetto. (and thanks to the charade of bilingual education, in 10 years society will have a student who is illiterate and incapable of educated expression in *two* languages! (and no, I'm not blaming teachers, I know that have absolutely no autonomy in the classroom.)

 

[Katt in Hat]

A selected portion of the ^above^ post.

I seek opinions because I'm trying to understand.

::SNIP:: Even though you've lived here and enriched yourself (and taken, in aggregate, billions of US dollars out of the economy and sent them back to the "home country", let's not forget)...to reject unconditionally the language, culture, etc of the host country and have no allegiance to that country whatsoever? ::/SNIP::

This Country's citizens and corporations have invested and been employed abroad and foreign interests and workers have done the same. Only a few examples of thousands and thousands here given; about 15 years ago, Ford Motors bought Jaguar Auto Ltd. lock stock&barrel. A recent example which didn't go thru due to security and political considerations is the Bahrain ports deal. Nestle, a Swiss entity, has bought many U.S. companies & so on. Properties, and any and every kind of equity and debt is held and traded from all corners by people from all over the globe. We buy Airbus aeroplanes from the European Entity and Sell Boeings worldwide. China runs a trade surplus greater, I think, than all money the foreign farm workers send home. So what does this mean in the grand scheme of things? enriched yourself (and taken, in aggregate, billions of US dollars out of the economy and sent them back to the "home country". Can't have it both ways is my point. I'm with you all regarding the illegal side but there are other factors which merit consideration. Just this one to ponder; a doubling of the price of fresh fruit and vegetables.
Please, input more than welcome.

 

[TommySalieri]

I will admit that we provided shelter to a uncle of mine from Mexico who was here on a visa. Legally, he was not allowed to work but, with a little bit of wheelin' and dealin' with the employers AND workers within the U.S. Government, he was able to obtain the ability to work in the U.S. using an illegally issued Social Security card. He earned his money and sent it back to his family in Mexico. Oddly enough, he never considered immigrating his family to the U.S. from Mexico. Why that was the case, I will never know. But it just goes to show how easy it is to "sneak" under the radar.

 

[Story]

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt - from a letter he wrote to the president of the American Defense Society on January 3, 1919, three days before he died.

 

[scotrace]

I had been thinking about this very letter, Story. Thanks for finding it.

Though TR became increasingly strident and intolerant near the end, his brand of vigorous "Square Deal"-ing is sorely missed.
He also knew how to dress.

 

[Story]

I had been thinking about this very letter, Story. Thanks for finding it.

Though TR became increasingly strident and intolerant near the end, his brand of vigorous "Square Deal"-ing is sorely missed.
He also knew how to dress.

Every man who stands up and takes a leadership position has his faults. They're human, but all things considered - I'd rather have Teddy back.

 

[TommySalieri]

Every man who stands up and takes a leadership position has his faults. They're human, but all things considered - I'd rather have Teddy back.

Hear, hear.

 

[Katt in Hat]

T.R.made no mention of Race or Gender 87 years ago, was one of our best Presidents.

'Fings change, Gov.

::SNIP::for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. ::/SNIP::

3/5 or 2/3 of people polled have grave misgivings about the direction the Country has taken or is taking. The issue seems to have cut across Party affiliation to some degree. The "New American Century" has started off rather haltingly. Reports are even more negative in other parts of the globe. I don't think that we can just blow off internal and external critics with a high-de-ho and a toss of our curls. (not meant 2 B sexist. It fits stylistically.)

Four years ago the entire World wanted to help us and support us in any and all ways. Now , the opposite seems the case.

'Fings, Gov... Are we better off now?

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself FDR (1933 Inaug.)after Thoreau 1851