Manners - The NY Times gets it

[Mrs. Merl]

Just to add my two cents to the somewhat - is it harder now than before topic in this thread...

I obviously did not live back then, and I do very strongly believe that times were often hard and probably in many ways far harder than now. However, I will say that despite the fact that both my husband and I have fairly well paying jobs (above average) it is almost impossible to purchase a home, at least in my area. I do feel that it may have been easier in prior eras to at least provide for ones family in many ways...I cannot even afford a livable home (the only option we have is what I like to refer to as the trailer park from hell with our income.) How do you explain that it is often portrayed that many a person was able to provide both shelter and food for their family and on one income - but today this seems like an impossibility? Some things - to me - do seem harder in our modern society.

 

[LizzieMaine]

How do you explain that it is often portrayed that many a person was able to provide both shelter and food for their family and on one income - but today this seems like an impossibility? Some things - to me - do seem harder in our modern society.

One point to keep in mind is that prior to WW2, most Americans *didn't* own homes -- we were a nation of renters until well into the postwar era, and it was only the introduction of VA loans ("Nothing down for qualified GIs!") after the war that generated the upsurge in home ownership -- which in turn was a major factor in creating the whole concept of a dominant postwar middle class: prior to the war, a majority of Americans fell into the "working class" category and had little hope of actually owning their home.

 

[Paisley]

Do you live in Aspen or Vail or somesuch? Those are exceptionally expensive areas. Elsewhere, single women are, if I remember right, the fastest growing group of new homeowners.

Long ago, people lived in much smaller houses with fewer amenities. A family of six might have lived in a two- or three-bedroom house with one phone, one bathroom, a solar-powered dryer and an entertainment center consisting of a piano and a radio. I live in a two-bedroom bungalow and my mother tells me she raised my five (much older) brothers and sisters in smaller quarters than that.

 

[Foofoogal]

alot of people I also believe lived together as family. (Waltons)
Family farms. I will though never truly believe 2 incomes are better than one always.
By the way. I have a home sitting empty in Texas for sale. So sad as it would be wonderful for a family as it is out in the country and on land for garden and critters and not way too far out of Houston.

 

[Feraud]

Thanks Lizzie. Your comment below answered the question I was going to ask.

One point to keep in mind is that prior to WW2, most Americans *didn't* own homes -- we were a nation of renters until well into the postwar era, and it was only the introduction of VA loans ("Nothing down for qualified GIs!") after the war that generated the upsurge in home ownership -- which in turn was a major factor in creating the whole concept of a dominant postwar middle class: prior to the war, a majority of Americans fell into the "working class" category and had little hope of actually owning their home.

One thing to consider when fawing over the good ol' days is you could probably live off your gas station attendant's job as a renter, with one good Sunday suit, and scratch out enough of a living to raise a family all the while hoping for a better life for your children. No t.v., no closet full of clothes, no home full of gadgets, computers, internet, On-Demand television, Itunes, 20+ fedoras, and with enough food to create a nation of overweight citizens, etc. etc.

There must have been benefits from living in the early part of the century but "day to day living" probably wasn't one of them.

 

[John in Covina]

AM New York's second part of 'Back to the Future' regarding 'The Bad Old 70s' New York.
http://weblogs.amny.com/entertainment/urbanite/blog/

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If you are old enough to remember, as NYC was being sucked down to the 7th level of Hell, they decided to run an ad campaign in which NYC was refered to as "Fun City" which was more that just a bit ironic.

NYC has been a working proof of the broken window syndrome in all it's effects.

 

[Senator Jack]

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they decided to run an ad campaign in which NYC was refered to as "Fun City" which was more that just a bit ironic.

Sure do. When I was a kid in a punk band, we wrote a song called 'Fun City Fuzz'. Though we never made clear exactly what this Fuzz was supposed to be, we knew we had to go out and get some.

 

[Fletch]

"bashing"

I want to apologize about "bashing" New York. I've been back where I grew up lately, getting an education and something of a re-calibration of the parallax view we all have on life, and admittedly a little too focused on why I left after 19 years.

Mind you, the soul-eating rat race is real. It's real everywhere, and it happens to be particularly inescapable in NY. Especially if you're a Type Z personality, as I am, all that Type A energy really wears you down. It had me in a deep rut of my own digging, and I knew it was time to move on.

But please understand, NY Loungers, that I never wanted to lump any of you in with all that. In fact, you do what I always tried, but failed, to do: to draw on the electricity and wealth of knowledge that is NY, but not let it take you over. Each of you is an island of civilization, and it has been a privilege to know you, a privilege I hope I have not abused.

 

[Fletch]

One thing to consider when fawing over the good ol' days is you could probably live off your gas station attendant's job as a renter, with one good Sunday suit, and scratch out enough of a living to raise a family all the while hoping for a better life for your children. No t.v., no closet full of clothes, no home full of gadgets, computers, internet, On-Demand television, Itunes, 20+ fedoras, and with enough food to create a nation of overweight citizens, etc. etc.

There must have been benefits from living in the early part of the century but "day to day living" probably wasn't one of them.

Yeah...When I look at my grands, both determinedly lower-middleclass in that era, I see that what got them by really came down to a kind of hard negative energy. It really centered in my paternal gf, who was a bitter moralist skinflint and made my dad toe the line so hard he still can't quite get over it in his 70s; and my maternal step-gf, a tough, wounded flower who taught my mom a world of graciousness, style, instability and rage.

There were other influences in my parents' worlds, good and civilized and loving ones, but the nasty, scary ones are where the survival and the drive came from.

The phrase zero-sum game didn't exist then, but I have the feeling that that's exactly what life was. There really was only so much to go around, and doing for the group often left the individual pretty raw.

 

[Senator Jack]

Asked of Guardian Angel founder Curtis Sliwa in the interview:

1978, 2008: Which year would you rather live in and why?

2008 without question. You can actually in 2008 close your eyes sometimes and not worry that your neck will be slit ear to ear. Whereas in 1978…arson...gang violence…you couldn’t close your eyes. At anytime people could come out of the woodwork. You don’t have that feeling now. It’s more relaxed.

The reason native NYers (especially those of my generation) can't stand the newcomers is because they came with their trust funds after everything was made safe for them. Here we are having toughed it out for all those years, having had to worry about getting mugged in school on any given day, and finally when we were ready to take advantage of those cheap apartments that abounded, the trust fund kids came around and drove up all the prices. Sure we're bitter. So are the residents of Harlem who have been driven out through the gentrification of the area. They stuck it out all those years and now that it's safer, developers come in and build condos for the rich.

Regards,

Jack

 

[LizzieMaine]

No t.v., no closet full of clothes, no home full of gadgets, computers, internet, On-Demand television, Itunes, 20+ fedoras, and with enough food to create a nation of overweight citizens, etc. etc.

There must have been benefits from living in the early part of the century but "day to day living" probably wasn't one of them.

Actually, I think for a lot of people this is exactly what they mean when they say they'd prefer the "simpler life" of the Era. Not the poverty and the frustration that was so common, certainly, but just less of an emphasis on pointless irrelevant *stuff.*

There was certainly the first inklings of a consumerist culture rising up in the twenties, but even at its worst it was nothing like today -- and the Depression and then the war pretty much halted its development in its tracks until the fifties came along. Before that, people were simply *not as defined by their posessions* as cultural pressures insists that they be now.

If we live in a culture that defines the good life by how fashion-coordinated your telephone is with your pocketbook, and which tries to tell us that there really is a meaningful and substantive difference between the forty-seven different kinds of bread at the grocery store, and which constantly bombards us with the idea that we must spend our entire lives locked into the mindset of acquisitive sex-obsessed adolescents or somehow we're missing out on all that life has to offer, then frankly, it's amazing to me that there aren't more people looking to drop out of it all.

 

[Mrs. Merl]

I don't mean to be rude...but, let me put it this way...to have a hope of being able to afford a modest (possibly less than 1000 square feet) home we made the decision that the only way to save enough money to bring our monthly payments down to a remotely feasible level was to move in with my grandparents. We, in fact, were barely able to save anything in the cheapest apartment that we could find (that would probably not have a gas explosion or neighbors cooking meth) at the time we were married. To also put it in perspective, I buy only thrift clothing and very few at that. We did not have television when renting, the cheapest dial-up we could afford (required for work), the most basic cell plan they offer (we live in a place that requires commuting and family insisted on this) always the free phone - even if they don't work well. I drive the same car my parents bought me when I graduated high school (a very sensible one with 40 mpg,) etc. I could go on and on about all the money pinching ways we followed, but it still came down to never getting ahead. That on two incomes. Don't get me wrong I know times were hard for most people - through all time, but come on. There is something wrong when you feel you will be chased out of the town you have lived in your whole life because you cannot afford it. (I will admit that we live in a more expensive area, but not anywhere near ski country prices.) We have looked at other places in the surrounding states, but unless you want to move to a place you probably can't get a job anyway things are ridiculously over priced. And we would have to give up the things that make going to work everyday seem worth it.

 

[Senator Jack]

There is something wrong when you feel you will be chased out of the town you have lived in your whole life because you cannot afford it.

Ah, so it's not just the native New Yorkers. I feel vindicated.

 

[Flivver]

One of my best friends is planning to move from New Hampshire to South Dakota for just this reason. He says "I can work my tail off to pay the property taxes in NH or live the life of Riley in SD".

There's something to be said for that.

 

[John in Covina]

Nevada is supposed to be pretty affoadable, no state taxes.

 

[Dr Doran]

But back to the original essay, and to support Jack and Baron Kurz a bit here.

I agree with most of you that the writer was at least somewhat pretentious and self-righteous.

I agree with those of you who suspect that public manners were probably better before a certain generation came to the fore. I certainly try to stay very mannerful at all times.

I agree with Jack and Baron that sometimes people are rude and when you have been polite from the get-go, at times you have force your way through, use an element of force, or intimidate them, and there is no way around it.

The ONLY method I have found that works in the town where I unfortunately live is to cultivate a slightly intimidating persona. This cuts out 95% of the rudeness that I see. People just don't want to ____ with me. This involves the occasional elbow a la our friend in Long Island. A bit of the steeling of the upper arm like Baron. And an occasional verbal challenge like Jack.

I do not live in NY nor am I from there. The only faint analogy I can provide is my own. I grew up in a part of LA wherein boys fought all the time. Up here in the Bay Area, it still astounds me to hear the kind of words I hear between people, words that would call for a fistfight if spoken in the milieu in which I grew up. People up here insult Los Angelenos for being superficial; but Los Angelenos are also more polite. The Bay Areans may be more "real" (whatever that means), and definitely are more political, and seem generally to read more, but they are also, in general, more rude, more willing to push their beliefs down your throat, to get in your face and challenge you, and are less generally considerate. Things fly here that would never fly in most other places.

I constantly find myself having to hold myself back when someone acts like a rude idiot here. I was having a coffee at Peets this morning and a homeless-ish guy comes in and tells everyone he will give them $3 if they will let him use their cell phone to "ask one question" and then hang up. Naturally no one wanted to do this. He then started cussing and using racial epithets upon us. I came VERY CLOSE to standing up and telling him to either leave or else I'd put him in the hospital, and it would have truly amused me to do this (that is, to knock the ___ out of him). However, I saw that he was already missing many teeth and the shame I would have felt at making his dental situation worse caused me to just give him a glare and leave it at that.

I agree with Jack. People need some intimidation sometimes. When I see idiots talking smack I simply think that they grew up amongst people that tolerated WAY too much guff.

End of rant.

 

[John in Covina]

Have a Nice Day in LA!

It's true about Los Angeles, people do tend to be more polite here.

Another thing is in LA you can be in line at the bank or at the store and talk to those in line around you, most people are pretty amicable.

 

[Foofoogal]

One of my best friends is planning to move from New Hampshire to South Dakota for just this reason. He says "I can work my tail off to pay the property taxes in NH or live the life of Riley in SD".

Flivver, I think this may be the key. I don't want to give the secret away but many, many Californians are heading to North West Arkansas for this reason.
It is just terrible though so stay away.

Mrs.Merl,
That is too bad you are not able to find affordable housing in safe neighborhood. I think all people should be able to.
My honey and I started with a hope chest and his stereo and car back in 1975. We lived on love in an efficiency apartment. He worked construction and was rained out alot. I look back with fondness on those times sometimes though. We have had and lost and had again. Up and down. Good times and bad. Richer and poorer. This is life really. It is hard for my brain to wrap around the recent events and what is happening here and around the world and probably feel more leary if that is the word than I have ever in the 33 years we have been married. I feel for you and all people really. Most people are good and just trying to plug along and put one foot in front of the other. I do think people are really wound up tight currently in many ways that is not good.
Bravado is a self defense mechanism as well as smart aleckyness.

 

[Fletch]

I feel for you and all people really. Most people are good and just trying to plug along and put one foot in front of the other. I do think people are really wound up tight currently in many ways that is not good.
Bravado is a self defense mechanism as well as smart aleckyness.

True on all counts.

I, however, do fear that if things get really bad again, the ones who make out the best will be the ones who are wound up the tightest they can without cracking. Ie, the hardest and meanest among us.

Also, "smart aleckyness" is an excellent defense mechanism as long as you don't need to impress anyone but yourself. If you do need others in your life, at least if you're a man, you better learn the language and style of bravado. It's mostly tacky bull$#!!, but it's got cachet.

 

[Foofoogal]

true Fletch but the old saying about "if you cannot run with the big dogs you better stay on the porch." I have found there is always a bigger, smarter or better dog somewhere.
Survival of the fittest and self preservation is alway present. Watching people take advantage of the weak makes me ill at best.
This last year was the 3rd. hardest of my life and I am just thankful to be still breathing though.
Life is precious and as fragile as a dandelion flower IMHO.