Manners - The NY Times gets it

[B. F. Socaspi]

Regarding SAT scores and the prerequisites for being accepted into even a community college:
A friend of mine has a 4.2 GPA and scored above average on her SATS. She's bilingual (Russian and English) and has taken Spanish courses since 3rd grade, takes classes at the community college on top of her high school courses, and got a scholarship U-Arts for their summer courses this summer because of her artistic talents.

She will have a very hard time getting into a good school, however, because my friend has never participated in school clubs or activities. The counselors say if she were intending to go to a prestigious school befitting her academic abilities, she would have to start volunteering outside of school and joining as many in-school activities as she reasonably could.

So she's expected to maintain an amazing GPA, volunteer outside of school and participate in activities within school, all while having to work two jobs to support her and her mother.

Then there's me. I scored high enough on my SATs in the 7th grade to get a scholarship to Cornell (I scored in the top 10% of the nation, including college bound seniors), have been involved in various Johns Hopkins programs since, play rugby and water polo, edit and contribute actively to the school newspaper, am a member of the Gay Straight Alliance, Environmental Science, and French clubs as well as the Quiz bowl, and have been published for my writings and for translating a song in Hugo's argot to English.

However, I've had panic disorder since the 8th grade, and it manifests itself academically in an inability to complete menial tasks like homework. As such, my grades are horrid.

My counselors don't think I'll graduate high school, and they doubt even a community college would take me.


And then there's another one of my friends. He's none too intelligent, but a great athlete. He cheats on everything, his teachers look the other way and give him all the breaks. Guess what? He's looking at some very great schools.

*****

I apologize for the rant, but one of the reasons I love the 20's-50's (ignoring the depression for the following example) is the relative simplicity of the time. I'm probably misguided, but I do feel that, in those times, people of true intelligence and talent would be able to make their way in life. You didn't need a Master's degree to be a sailor, and you could get by with an honest life with a 9-5.

Pressure in our society is very real. More teenagers than ever are reported with anxiety disorders. I'm certain that my generation's wretched manners are a direct result of this. Try teaching manners to us busy-bodies, have fun.

 

[Feraud]

I apologize for the rant, but one of the reasons I love the 20's-50's (ignoring the depression for the following example) is the relative simplicity of the time. I'm probably misguided, but I do feel that, in those times, people of true intelligence and talent would be able to make their way in life. You didn't need a Master's degree to be a sailor, and you could get by with an honest life with a 9-5.

That is a misguided view of the past. You cannot appreciate the realities an era except for the Depression, or WWII, or the lack of Civil Rights, etc. etc. You must take the bad with the good.
No era is ever simple. Favoritism, patronage, and politics has always existed and always will. The "Havs" will keep their collective boots planted firmly on the necks of the "Have Nots". If you want to be a sailor than join the Navy. Likewise with a 9-5 job. Take a 9-5 position and be an honest person if you choose.

I find that people who cannot get along in this era would do just as badly in the past. The idea that "I was born 70 years too late" is silly.

 

[Viper Man]

Seems some people see no reason to apologize for accidents or anything else these days.

Anyway, in my beloved old New York, the sarkiness that the writer exhibits would have eventually got him a bust in the jaw. That's the problem with the new New York transplants. They believe they don't have to physically back up such mouthings should it come to it. Hipsters are good for that, and it amuses me to see then suddenly become very apologetic and shaky when I say, 'What did you just say.'

Jack

Wow, aren't you a tough guy? Very frightening, I'm sure.

 

[pigeon toe]

That is a misguided view of the past. You cannot appreciate the realities an era except for the Depression, or WWII, or the lack of Civil Rights, etc. etc. You must take the bad with the good.
No era is ever simple. Favoritism, patronage, and politics has always existed and always will. The "Havs" will keep their collective boots planted firmly on the necks of the "Have Nots". If you want to be a sailor than join the Navy. Likewise with a 9-5 job. Take a 9-5 position and be an honest person if you choose.

I find that people who cannot get along in this era would do just as badly in the past. The idea that "I was born 70 years too late" is silly.

I agree with you about 95%. However, in speaking to my parents (and they have witnessed and funded my education up until this point), I have learned that they agree that kids and young adults work much harder than their generation did for an education, and don't really gain that much in return.

 

[Paisley]

The Wall Street Journal has published articles over the past few years on whether it is even worthwhile to go to college. Their opinion of the BA is that it's a very expensive IQ test. A lot of employers require one, yet the area of study often doesn't have anything to do with the job.

 

[Paisley]

Pressure in our society is very real. More teenagers than ever are reported with anxiety disorders. I'm certain that my generation's wretched manners are a direct result of this. Try teaching manners to us busy-bodies, have fun.

I could go on and on about how hard it was for a lot of kids in the Golden Age. But I'll just say this: the most polite people I know have far more pressure in their lives--children, career, employees, business interests they own--than a typical teenager.

 

[DBLIII]

Wow. Interesting responses!
I am glad that I spend most of my time way out in the country. Most people I meet are very polite -- and there's plenty of room to walk past somebody.

 

[Feraud]

I agree with you about 95%. However, in speaking to my parents (and they have witnessed and funded my education up until this point), I have learned that they agree that kids and young adults work much harder than their generation did for an education, and don't really gain that much in return.

I guess that depends on where you live and what you do. I know of college grads who are entering the workplace making obscene starting salaries. The bar has been raised on today's education and more people are going for their Master's. Once you finish the work there is a windfall of pay and benefits to reap. Again, this depends on your profession.

The Wall Street Journal has published articles over the past few years on whether it is even worthwhile to go to college. Their opinion of the BA is that it's a very expensive IQ test. A lot of employers require one, yet the area of study often doesn't have anything to do with the job.

An interesting idea to be sure. BAs are requried for the most entry level postions yet I know people with higher eduction that cannot find their way around a jammed copy machine.

 

[Feraud]

I could go on and on about how hard it was for a lot of kids in the Golden Age. But I'll just say this: the most polite people I know have far more pressure in their lives--children, career, employees, business interests they own--than any teenager.

Yes. Responsibilty tends to breed maturity. Most teenagers do not have the personal and financial responsibilites of older adults.

 

[Undertow]

Feraud, it's not that I disagree with you, because I don't, I just believe it's a little more complicated.

It seems to me that a young (white) man from a middle income family, who was smart enough and driven enough to go to school, attain a college degree (which I believe was harder to attain then) and look for a job, had a better shot at getting a real career.

You're correct in asserting that if one so chooses, they may attain a 9-5 or join the Navy, or become an actor, or what have you; and in fact, I believe it's probably easier to do those things now than they were in the past. However, I would argue that the difference is that companies are much bigger, human skill is much more plentiful, jobs are much more expendable.

Now I agree if you can’t hack it now there’s no sense in lying to yourself that things would have been easier then, because they wouldn’t have been. The Depression and WWII should be HUGE indicators of that point (i.e. you could very well have been unemployed or face-down on some French beach). But I believe that when one did get their foot in the door, they were able to go farther, faster. It’s not that you can’t do that now, but in this day and age you’d need to be either A.) Experienced, or B.) Ivy League.

Jobs now, ones that should be career worthy, are more or less dead ends holding you over until you get lucky enough to find a “real” job. Consider Customer Service positions; the company might be great, you might be intelligent and driven, but you’re still just customer service – an ant in a 30,000 employee ant hill – first to go, last to know.

Maybe I’m just being cynical. But don’t get me wrong, I do agree with you, Feraud, about 95% like Pigeon Toe.

 

[Feraud]

I agree it is a lot more complicated and only usually agree w/myself 95% of the time too.

I posted in this thread because of the NYC bashing.

 

[MrBern]

ambition & accomplishments

Nope. Scranton merely gave us the Schrutebuck.

What about Ryan, who went off to become an executive in NYC, only to wash out?

And now Pam is depicted as going to NYC , but washing out of Art school

Maybe you have to be type A as well as talented to survive in NYC. And the washouts melt back to th suburbs? Maybe thats why there are so many jokes about NJ or Pa. being second rate? Maybe thats why so many people are embittered about the NYC experience?

Ambition isnt a sin. I hope all our children go to college & have glorious careers. Maybe they'll even end up polite citizens.

 

[Paisley]

New York--if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere!

 

[MrBern]

white flight

Wow, aren't you a tough guy? Very frightening, I'm sure.

I'd have to agree with Jack.
NYC was once a rather scarey place. And bumping into someone could result in a nice littl trip to the ER. Its far different today after the steady mobilization of Police & 'quality or life' procedures by the former Mayor Giuliani.
Some of us would like to think he did this for the Citizens. Others might say these policies were instituted to lower crime stats & attract more tourism dollars.
But make no mistake, just looking at someone the wrong way would once start up trouble.

 

[MrBern]

I agree with you about 95%. However, in speaking to my parents (and they have witnessed and funded my education up until this point), I have learned that they agree that kids and young adults work much harder than their generation did for an education, and don't really gain that much in return.

Its been an interesting predicament the last decade or so that a solid BA is often mocked. President Bush made light of his own status as a 'C' student. And of course its widely touted that BillGates dropped out before getting his degree.

 

[MrBern]

NYC Spunk

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11192008/news/regionalnews/subway_gal_beats_up_on_3_thugs_139430.htm

SUBWAY GAL BEATS UP ON 3 THUGS
'BAD-ASS MAMA' TURNS THE TABLES

 

[Senator Jack]

Wow, aren't you a tough guy? Very frightening, I'm sure.

Not at all. A pacifist at heart. The problem with the influx of hipsters into the safe New York is that they think they can mouth off to everyone because they think they're being funny. For example, I was talking to a female friend a few years back at bar and some hipster jerk made what he thought was a funny remark at my expense. He didn't seem to realize she and I were friends and that I wasn't trying to pick her up. Usually, I'd blow off such stupidity, but I said to myself, you know, who the hell is this guy to try to make me look foolish. So I gave him the business. 'Were you included in this conversation?' So there he goes with the 'I didn't mean anything,' apology.

In a way, it's teaching these schnooks a lesson. The next guy they mouth off to could be the one who decides to make good on a beating, or worse.

Regards,

Jack

 

[Foofoogal]

My counselors don't think I'll graduate high school, and they doubt even a community college would take me.

B.F.Socaspi.

Wow oh Wow!

I have known many, many people that have surprised many, many school counselors. While I have great respect for those who depend on college I have also known many successful people who have not stepped foot in a college also.
It is always good to get advice from people you respect but you first have to believe in yourself.
I appreciate you reminding me to remember what it was like to be young and to expand on my imagination as to what it must be like now for the young. I get great comfort when I see successful people who many wrote off years ago. Some are late bloomers. lol Thank you.
Imperfect situations should make one stronger and not weaker. It is up to the individual mainly as I see it. Whacha gonna do?

 

[Senator Jack]

AM New York's second part of 'Back to the Future' regarding 'The Bad Old 70s' New York.
http://weblogs.amny.com/entertainment/urbanite/blog/

 

[Foofoogal]

In a way, it's teaching these schnooks a lesson. The next guy they mouth off to could be the one who decides to make good on a beating, or worse.

Jack, I completely understand this also. I have a young nephew that can do no wrong according to his mom and grandmother. The kid is a loose cannon and obnoxious. If anyone says anything in the family they defend him. (grew up without a father so I think this is how he snows them, out of guilt I guess.)

I pray he hurries up and grows up in spite of the doting as someone may not be so amused one day so I understand what you mean.