MacArthur's hat

[1961MJS]

He should have been court martialed for insubordination in 1932 when he disobeyed President Hoover's orders in how he dealt with the Bonus Marchers. I also wonder how he was awarded air medals when he was never a pilot.

Hi

The Air Medal is pretty "easy" to get when there's a war on, most flights are pretty dangerous and he was a general...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Medal

One of my old friends (Vietnam Vet) had literally dozens of Air Medals, he flew 4-5 tours in Vietnam and you got one for every five missions (roughly).

Later

 

[hatguy1]

Hi

The Air Medal is pretty "easy" to get when there's a war on, most flights are pretty dangerous and he was a general...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Medal

One of my old friends (Vietnam Vet) had literally dozens of Air Medals, he flew 4-5 tours in Vietnam and you got one for every five missions (roughly).

Later

Yes, sad that some general being shuttled to a staff meeting or something in an airplane (which is far less dangerous) gets awarded the Air Medal as if he flew combat sorties like regular fighter/bomber etc aircrew flying combat missions.


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[hatguy1]

I've seen mostly good reviews of the MacArthur biography "American Caesar." May get that sometime and look into this CMoH and Air Medal thing some more. Also how he came to smoke that huge corn cob pipe.


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[Treetopflyer]

Funny thing is that he hadn't been back in the United States for 30 years prior to him coming back during the Korean War.

 

[hatguy1]

Funny thing is that he hadn't been back in the United States for 30 years prior to him coming back during the Korean War.

Yes. Isn't that strange....?


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[1961MJS]

Yes, sad that some general being shuttled to a staff meeting or something in an airplane (which is far less dangerous) gets awarded the Air Medal as if he flew combat sorties like regular fighter/bomber etc aircrew flying combat missions.


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Hi

I responded to this earlier, but deleted it because my auto-correct on the Kindle HD changed the words too much.

Just flying from point A to point B in the Pacific wasn't the given that it is now. My Dad was a Weather Forecaster with the 17th Weather Squadron from November 1942 until November 1945, mostly in the Pacific. Quite a few planes were lost in storms etc. Not being Pro-Doug, but he DID invent the Island hopping strategy which saved quite a few lives. If you note, I believe that the bloodier battles were in places invaded by Nimitz and the US Marines. Tarawa would be an example.

Kindle wouldn't let me type "Pro-Doug", it changed it to "Pro-Choice". That's not all that close but I guess Amazon has decided that if you're Pro- something, it MUST be choice...

Later

 

[Treetopflyer]

Hi

I responded to this earlier, but deleted it because my auto-correct on the Kindle HD changed the words too much.

Just flying from point A to point B in the Pacific wasn't the given that it is now. My Dad was a Weather Forecaster with the 17th Weather Squadron from November 1942 until November 1945, mostly in the Pacific. Quite a few planes were lost in storms etc. Not being Pro-Doug, but he DID invent the Island hopping strategy which saved quite a few lives. If you note, I believe that the bloodier battles were in places invaded by Nimitz and the US Marines. Tarawa would be an example.

Kindle wouldn't let me type "Pro-Doug", it changed it to "Pro-Choice". That's not all that close but I guess Amazon has decided that if you're Pro- something, it MUST be choice...

Later

There is no doubt he was a great tactician. I think his faults were with his ego which hindered what people thought of him. The fact that he made President Truman wait on him for a meeting tells you something about his ego. Being Co-Emperor of Japan after the war didn't help in shrinking his ego either.

 

[hatguy1]

I see what you're saying '61.
Just curious; were air medals awarded to paratroopers too? If the Gregory Peck movie re Mac is accurate, Mac points out to Roosevelt that it's the better commander who sacrifices fewer lives by avoiding the outdated frontal assault, as you're pointing out re Nimitz.

And TreeTop, you make a great point too. Both Patton and Mac were brilliant tacticians. But their flamboyance, self-aggrandizement and egos do tend to overshadow the appreciation if their strategies and other abilities.


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[T Jones]

The other night I caught a rerun of the 1977 Gregory Peck classic "MacArthur." Got me to wondering why MacArthur's wheel cap was all embroidered insignia? I can't say I've ever seen any photos of any other US army generals wearing one like that. Anyone know?

View attachment 9361


Any other wheel caps I've seen worn typically have the metal insignia that screws on the front.

View attachment 9362

I think MacArthur had his cap tailor made to his liking. Despite their flamboyant styles and their big egos, I liked both MacArthur and Patton. From those who disliked these Generals you're going to hear nothing but the negative. From those who liked them, you'll hear nothing but glowing praises. But from those who look at History soberly and without regard for personal feelings you'll get the facts.

 

[hatguy1]

I'm certainly not anti-Patton/Mac. It's just an interesting study in leadership to note the ego that accompanied the accomplishments. Also an interesting study in image/perception in which of the traits are remembered etc and in what contexts appreciated or looked down upon.

I keep wanting to read "Leadership Lessons of General Patton (or principles, can't remember exact title).


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[Treetopflyer]

From those who disliked these Generals you're going to hear nothing but the negative. From those who liked them, you'll hear nothing but glowing praises. But from those who look at History soberly and without regard for personal feelings you'll get the facts.

As a military officer and historian I do not like MacArthur. History is more than just dates and hard core "facts", you have to look at all of the people involved in historical events. In doing that you also see their personalities. If you don't form an opinion about someone by studying history than you aren't really studying history, you are simply looking at dates, times and locations events took place.

 

[1961MJS]

As a military officer and historian I do not like MacArthur. History is more than just dates and hard core "facts", you have to look at all of the people involved in historical events. In doing that you also see their personalities. If you don't form an opinion about someone by studying history than you aren't really studying history, you are simply looking at dates, times and locations events took place.

Plus 1. I believe that Doug's island hopping saved thousands of lives as did Patton's end runs, but I wouldn't have wanted to be within 100 yards of either one.

Later

 

[Otter]

Plus 1. I believe that Doug's island hopping saved thousands of lives as did Patton's end runs, but I wouldn't have wanted to be within 100 yards of either one.

Later

+1Both of you,nothing can get you killed faster than a General Officer. Besides, MacArthur was ready to start WWIII by nuking the North Koreans.

 

[Treetopflyer]

Therein lies another debate. Was MacArthur correct in saying we should have kept going north into China? Some believe yes because Russia would not have stepped in because, although both countries were communist, it was not a monotheistic communism. Others believe the Russians would have jumped in the fight full on. My opinion is that our military was not prepared for a full on war with China. Task Force Smith was proof of that.

China would not have even gotten involved if NATO would have let the South Koreans take on the North on their own after the North’s army had been decimated. The only reason China got involved was because the U.S. went north of the 38th parallel after China gave the ultimatum that said they would not get involved if the South Korean Army acted alone against the North. Basically, China felt threatened by U.S. troops moving north of the 38th parallel.

 

[T Jones]

I'm certainly not anti-Patton/Mac. It's just an interesting study in leadership to note the ego that accompanied the accomplishments. Also an interesting study in image/perception in which of the traits are remembered etc and in what contexts appreciated or looked down upon.

I keep wanting to read "Leadership Lessons of General Patton (or principles, can't remember exact title).


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Yup, that would make for a real interesting study in leadership qualities.
I guess a bit of ego, arrogance, independence, ambition and self-confidence thrown in the mix are part of what made these two Generals great military leaders. Definitely worth the study.

 

[hatguy1]

Well, both Patton and Mac advocated taking the fight to the Communists (Patton against Russia and Mac on into China). I think both wanted to avoid the mistakes made by the Neville Chamberlains of pre-WW2 and had a clear vision for the pests that both Russia and China were (or were going to be to the world. Now whether that's a good or bad thing, I'll leave to another discussion other than to say that's how I want my military men thinking - sticking to what they're good at - so long as civilian policy makers over them have the final say. Not a perfect syst and in some ways probably leads to letting problems fester far larger before they're handled BUT prevents a military empire type of policy.


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[T Jones]

As a military officer and historian I do not like MacArthur. History is more than just dates and hard core "facts", you have to look at all of the people involved in historical events. In doing that you also see their personalities. If you don't form an opinion about someone by studying history than you aren't really studying history, you are simply looking at dates, times and locations events took place.

That's the way I meant it. Dates, names and places are only a part of gathering historical data. Yes. You have to look at everything involved, including the people. They're all part of the hard core facts too. But hardly will two different people look at the very same facts and draw the very same opinion. We might both agree that the historical data is factual but our opinions about the people involved could be different.

 

[hatguy1]

TreeTop and TJones, you gents point out something that drives me bonkers about how most kids are taught history - nothing but memorization of factoids without emphasis on appreciation of context, challenges, consequences and the whys behind the what's. Hence, a lot of people profess (& probably sincerely) to dislike history and find it boring, etc. Makes the teacher in me really grind my teeth. But, that's probably pretty far off this topic.....


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[Stearmen]

Hi

I responded to this earlier, but deleted it because my auto-correct on the Kindle HD changed the words too much.

Just flying from point A to point B in the Pacific wasn't the given that it is now. My Dad was a Weather Forecaster with the 17th Weather Squadron from November 1942 until November 1945, mostly in the Pacific. Quite a few planes were lost in storms etc. Not being Pro-Doug, but he DID invent the Island hopping strategy which saved quite a few lives. If you note, I believe that the bloodier battles were in places invaded by Nimitz and the US Marines. Tarawa would be an example.

Kindle wouldn't let me type "Pro-Doug", it changed it to "Pro-Choice". That's not all that close but I guess Amazon has decided that if you're Pro- something, it MUST be choice...

Later

Actually, the Navy first proposed Island Hopping. Admiral Chester Nimitz, was given credit for the invention. However, it was first proposed as early as 1911 by Rear Admiral Raymond Perry Rodgers and incorporated into War Plan Orange, the official Navy strategy in case of war with Japan.

 

[Stearmen]

MacArthur was in charge of two of Americas biggest military defeats. The Philippines and Korea. In the first, he had almost eight hours warning that he was going to be attacked, and he did nothing! His planes were nice and neatly lined up, men were in their barracks, it was a real Turkey Shoot. If he was not so well connected with high up pollutions, he probably would have suffered the same fate as Admiral Husband Kimmel!
In Korea, he was warned by his forward officers that they were taking Chinese regulars prisoner, he ignored them.