MA-1 Flight jacket

[Doctor Damage]

The photo above was taken several years ago for a friend who was building a site dedicated to vintage nylon flight jackets. I photographed my collection by placing jackets on the floor and shooting them from above. During the process, I had to keep shooing my cat away while I tried to get each photo exactly right. I thought that I had succeeded until months later when l looked closely at the photo of my Satellite MA-1. You can see Maggie's paw in the upper left corner of the photo. She had managed to get herself into the picture in spite of all my efforts to the contrary.

Those photos will be useful for your book on cold-war nylon flight jackets, which you are no doubt working hard on now that you're retired...

 

[Big J]

Those photos will be useful for your book on cold-war nylon flight jackets, which you are no doubt working hard on now that you're retired...

I wish I could start a company making repros of those 60's MA-1's. Alpha could do excellent repros, but they won't, and I reckon the profit margins on BR, and RMcC must be pretty big.

 

[bn1966]

Things in the future are looking up for sure: a book about cold war nylon flight jackets & potentially a new company making 60's repros

Would love to know the shoulder measurements on an XL Satellite, 21+ works for me...20" doesn't. I think there's an XL on the Bay at present...cars..scooters & houses are keeping me from any purchases at present :-(

I love dogs & have a Saluki cross which thankfully has never caused any jacket problems yet, but like yours Big J I have to be careful of that combination of paws / claws & expensive garments...there is plenty of potential.

 

[Big J]

As promised, comparative measurements.



Shoulders (seam to seam across the jacket laid flat on the floor, measured where the top of the sleeve joins the top of the shell shoulder);
68 Alpha = 51.5 cm, 67 Satellite = 52 cm.

Armpit to armpit (measured from the seam in the armpit where sleeve joins shell, straight across jacket lying flat on the floor, to the opposite pit);

68 Alpha = 70 cm, 67 Satellite = 72 cm.

Back length (measured down the middle of the back, with jacket lying flat on the floor, from the seam where collar knit joins shell, length of waist knits, same on both jackets, added);

68 Alpha = 61 cm, 67 Satellite = 64.5 cm.

I hope this helps.

As I'm sure you know, these are short jackets- much shorter than A-2's of the same size (I guess to prevent interference with G-suit inflation around the abdomen), so they might not be a style for everyone. My Aero A-2's are all a size 50 with and extra inch on the length of the sleeves and the body, otherwise they would be too short to cover my belt. My new Aero M422a is the same, just like my B-3. Strangely, my two issue G-1's are standard size 48, and they fit fine, but my LW G-1 is a size 50 with an extra inch on the body and the sleeves. I guess early 70's G-1s were more generously cut, but I also take a 48R in most suit jackets (sizing, go figure?).

The MA-1s are short because that is the style, they are not short in sleeve length. The body of the Alpha won't cover my belt if I wear 501's (which for me have a decent rise), but the Satellite will.

If I could get these into production, I would make an XXL size so that we can cover our belts! (But no 'long' sizes because that messes with the proportions of the jacket).

As a side note to anyone who has never handled an issue MA-1, modern Alphas aren't worth the money IMHO. The wool interlining of originals is heavy, and that drastically affects the drape, making the jacket wear and move differently. Not to mention the shell, which is really thick, tight nylon, much stiffer than modern Alphas.

 

[Big J]

Things in the future are looking up for sure: a book about cold war nylon flight jackets & potentially a new company making 60's repros

Would love to know the shoulder measurements on an XL Satellite, 21+ works for me...20" doesn't. I think there's an XL on the Bay at present...cars..scooters & houses are keeping me from any purchases at present :-(

I love dogs & have a Saluki cross which thankfully has never caused any jacket problems yet, but like yours Big J I have to be careful of that combination of paws / claws & expensive garments...there is plenty of potential.

Dogs really are a mans best friend (narrowly beating bear). Yours looks great, and has short hair. My dog malts, and dribbles on everything.

 

[bn1966]

Thanks for that Big J, your comparison measurements are really useful...kind of you to put in the time and go to the effort...much appreciated.

I'm an ELC 46/48 dependent on the type of leather jacket. I would like an original G1 & find your comments on those very interesting (may start looking for a 70's one sometime). At 5.10" most XL service Alpha's work for me with the exception of the MA1 (shoulders too narrow). I have a couple of L2Bs & N2Bs that work for me, as I said the Greenbrier 76 MA1 allows me a usable service MA1.

I like the old Alpha Replica series with it's heavy nylon and wool interlining: I've a Blue N2B which meets my N2A need, a sage early type MA1 & a mint B-15D. This series are slightly longer than most originals in my experience & cover the belt with 501's on. I'm not keen on modern Alpha's either, I own a modern dark blue L2B which I can wear to work without it appearing too 'military'...casually I prefer the short and puffy service jacket look. With regard to repro, I like Buzz but not the price & Weintraub IMHO make a half decent jacket (see pic) nice & heavy.

Wish you could get into production, some XXLs that cover the belt would be great. Oh and my hound molts: White fur everywhere

 

[Big J]

Thanks for that Big J, your comparison measurements are really useful...kind of you to put in the time and go to the effort...much appreciated.

I'm an ELC 46/48 dependent on the type of leather jacket. I would like an original G1 & find your comments on those very interesting (may start looking for a 70's one sometime). At 5.10" most XL service Alpha's work for me with the exception of the MA1 (shoulders too narrow). I have a couple of L2Bs & N2Bs that work for me, as I said the Greenbrier 76 MA1 allows me a usable service MA1.

I like the old Alpha Replica series with it's heavy nylon and wool interlining: I've a Blue N2B which meets my N2A need, a sage early type MA1 & a mint B-15D. This series are slightly longer than most originals in my experience & cover the belt with 501's on. I'm not keen on modern Alpha's either, I own a modern dark blue L2B which I can wear to work without it appearing too 'military'...casually I prefer the short and puffy service jacket look. With regard to repro, I like Buzz but not the price & Weintraub IMHO make a half decent jacket (see pic) nice & heavy.

Wish you could get into production, some XXLs that cover the belt would be great. Oh and my hound molts: White fur everywhere

Yeah, I love that blue color on your jacket.
I guess the first stage would be to find the factory in China that's making the knits, shells and interlining for BR or RMC, and then cut a deal for some extra production and supply. Sourcing zippers and the right machines to sew them together would be step two.

 

[Big J]

Just noticed something about my 67 Satellite, the main zipper is Scovill, but the sleeve pocket zipper is a Conmar.

 

[Doctor Damage]

Getting the patterns right would probably be the biggest challenge, since fit is key to getting the 'look' right. Materials can be upgraded or downgraded to achieve a particular price point, and sewing is a skill which is widely available.

 

[Big J]

Getting the patterns right would probably be the biggest challenge, since fit is key to getting the 'look' right. Materials can be upgraded or downgraded to achieve a particular price point, and sewing is a skill which is widely available.

The materials have got to be spot on correct regardless of price point. If customers are worried about price over accuracy, they'd buy a modern crappy Alpha, wouldn't they? Experienced machinists who are familiar with sewing these strange vintage slippery nylons would be a problem. As for getting the patterns right, I guess you could take apart some originals in poor condition, and scale up/scale down to get the sizes (or just buy some BR jackets and dismantle them, maybe?).

 

[Justhandguns]

The materials have got to be spot on correct regardless of price point. If customers are worried about price over accuracy, they'd buy a modern crappy Alpha, wouldn't they? Experienced machinists who are familiar with sewing these strange vintage slippery nylons would be a problem. As for getting the patterns right, I guess you could take apart some originals in poor condition, and scale up/scale down to get the sizes (or just buy some BR jackets and dismantle them, maybe?).

I guess some of the best 50s' 60s' MA-1 are from Real McCoy's, not Buzz. The question is to get the price and accuracy balance.

 

[Blackadder]

I think one must also take into account the QC of the Japanese repros. When one looks at the perfect flawless workmanship of pieces of goods, there would be a number of rejects lying out of sight on the factory floor. The level of QC on Japanese repros is much higher than Alpha, Cockpit etc. which also raises the costs

 

[Edward]

I wish I could start a company making repros of those 60's MA-1's. Alpha could do excellent repros, but they won't, and I reckon the profit margins on BR, and RMcC must be pretty big.

I'd love it if Alpha would start doing repros of the quality of their Replica Series from the early nineties. Comparing my AR B15C to my Buzz B15C-MOD, I can see exactly where they cut the corners, but that said, it doesn't seem impossible to me that Alpha could put one of these out at +/- GBP150, which is far short of the GBP500+ that the Buzz costs new. Eventually, I think I'll be able to justify to myself the price of the Buzz B15s / MA1s , but when it comes to lighter jackets, especially the L2/L2A/L2B, I find it really hard to justify spending what would get me close to a really nice leather, or even B15 money, on such a simple nylon jacket. That's where Alpha could really come in. Ultimately, though, I suspect they know their market well. Whereas the likes of Buzz are niche manufacturers, Alpha is chasing a mass -market that just isn't interested in 'milspec'. Alpha wants to sell to the kids who are interested in an MA1 because some hip hop guy wore one, or because they like the skinhead look, and want more colour options than blue or green, or even the venues who want a cheap, reliable, warm jacket for door staff uniforms. That's where the money is; stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap, yay capitalism. I honestly can't see this ever changing unless there's a film or TV series that comes out which has a big enough following interested in these jackets (whether for civilian wear or fancy dress - "cosplay" as it's now commonly known) for accurate repros to suddenly become a thing that would appeal to a mass-market producer.

It would certainly be interesting to see what the profit margin is for the likes of Buzz. I don't imagine it's significantly higher than for an equivalent leather jacket, though. I'm sure there will be some saving in the materials, though I don't know how cheap the right nylon type really is. There's also a little more material required for a jacket like an MA1, given that you have the shell, line, and the interlining, a middle layer not being common in leather. I should think that the nylon jackets are easier to sew than heavy leathers, but they'll still require a certain levle of skill and number of man-hours to produce. Chinese (or other alternative) manufacture would obviously be one way of keeping the price down - I suspect that Buzz pay out a lot more for labour in Japan than do Alpha in China.

If somebody took it on and could produce a fair mid-level jacket with a reasonable level of accuracy, though - a mid-market contende3r akin to Schott in leathers - I'd definitely be interested in that.

The materials have got to be spot on correct regardless of price point. If customers are worried about price over accuracy, they'd buy a modern crappy Alpha, wouldn't they?

That's a bit too binary, imo. I suspect there are a lot of us who will compromise on certain details over price. Sadly, money is an issue for many of us (or I'd have a full set of all the nylons Buzz Rickson have been producing over the past few years!).

Experienced machinists who are familiar with sewing these strange vintage slippery nylons would be a problem. As for getting the patterns right, I guess you could take apart some originals in poor condition, and scale up/scale down to get the sizes (or just buy some BR jackets and dismantle them, maybe?).

The designs themselves are now out of legal protection, so yes, you could dismantle originals - or even Buzz jackets (the distinction is that while you could reverse engineer and copy the jacket, Buzz's patterns are still protected so you couldn't borrow those and go from them. I know, no real difference at all in practice, but that's the law...). Dismantling and studying a known accurate repro would likely be a better option for some jackets that are now rare and hard to find even in good condition; that said, if it was an MA1 you were after doing, I'd have thought there were still plenty of originals readily available cheap enough and in ratty condition that one would be no great sacrifice to pull apart...

An MA1 would be a good place to start for someone looking into this market, as long as the lack of wide availability of existing repros doesn't indicate a lack of willing buyers, of course! From a production pov, though, the MA1, to the best of my knowledge, didn't change significantly in design for its entire run (aside from the makeup of the interlining, obviously), plus it was the same as the B15C&D MOD-spec jackets.... possibly the maximum range to be pulled out of the same pattern? Then there are the L2 jackets - only changed colour between the pre-suffix, A & B specs. I'd love to see somebody produce a line of accurate(ish, at least) L2-types at a low price... TBH, with better labelling and a more accurate colour, my Alpha Vintage L2A would be great... I fantasise that someone could produce them at a price that would buy me one of each spec for the price of one Buzz (I've seen Buzz L2s selling for anywhere between GBP500 and GBP575), but that could be unrealistic depending on where you produce and what sort of unit sales you can expect...

 

[Doctor Damage]

Some disorganized thoughts...

(1) There's no point in competing head-on with Buzz and Real McCoy. It's safe to say they "own" the top end of the repro market for nylon flight jackets. Their brands are well known and they have loyal customers. I mean, when a repro company's products are as collectible as the vintage originals, then you just can't compete with that.

(2) There are a lot of technical challenges involved in making stuff. Sourcing consistent materials, retaining expertise, creating a manufacturing process, spoilage, etc. Patterns are far more complex than you think. You can schlep around and source the nylon you want, but you can't just go out and source proven, workable patterns. Unless you could just buy them from Weintraub.

(3) I agree there's a gap in the marketplace in terms of pricing, especially in the "mid market". The same gap exists with men's shoes, although Allen Edmonds does a pretty good job of filling the upper end of that gap. I think it might be best to do jackets which aren't 100% repros but more like Weintraub did - well made jackets, good materials, acceptable authenticity, with some compromises to achieve a reasonable price.

(4) Edward is right: until your jackets show up in a movie or on the backs of celebrities, then they won't get noticed by the mass market. Only Buzz and the specialists can do without that sort of exposure.

(5) Alpha's current mass market jackets are very well constructed. They're not Buzz, but they're not to be looked down on either. I said very well "constructed"; quality is much more than just good materials. Alden, for example, uses some amazing quality leathers, but they're construction quality is typically, consistently poorer than the UK companies such as Church's or Crockett & Jones, who often use leather which isn't as nice as Alden does.

(6) Wool is very expensive these days.

(7) I hate to sound pessimistic, but I just don't think there's that many people out there who want a repro flight jacket at any price.

(8) Buzz recently did a nylon repro CWU 45/P jacket. WTF? Who would want such a thing? Brand loyalists.

 

[Smithy]

Some disorganized thoughts...

(1) There's no point in competing head-on with Buzz and Real McCoy. It's safe to say they "own" the top end of the repro market for nylon flight jackets. Their brands are well known and they have loyal customers. I mean, when a repro company's products are as collectible as the vintage originals, then you just can't compete with that.

(2) There are a lot of technical challenges involved in making stuff. Sourcing consistent materials, retaining expertise, creating a manufacturing process, spoilage, etc. Patterns are far more complex than you think. You can schlep around and source the nylon you want, but you can't just go out and source proven, workable patterns. Unless you could just buy them from Weintraub.

(3) I agree there's a gap in the marketplace in terms of pricing, especially in the "mid market". The same gap exists with men's shoes, although Allen Edmonds does a pretty good job of filling the upper end of that gap. I think it might be best to do jackets which aren't 100% repros but more like Weintraub did - well made jackets, good materials, acceptable authenticity, with some compromises to achieve a reasonable price.

(4) Edward is right: until your jackets show up in a movie or on the backs of celebrities, then they won't get noticed by the mass market. Only Buzz and the specialists can do without that sort of exposure.

(5) Alpha's current mass market jackets are very well constructed. They're not Buzz, but they're not to be looked down on either. I said very well "constructed"; quality is much more than just good materials. Alden, for example, uses some amazing quality leathers, but they're construction quality is typically, consistently poorer than the UK companies such as Church's or Crockett & Jones, who often use leather which isn't as nice as Alden does.

(6) Wool is very expensive these days.

(7) I hate to sound pessimistic, but I just don't think there's that many people out there who want a repro flight jacket at any price.

(8) Buzz recently did a nylon repro CWU 45/P jacket. WTF? Who would want such a thing? Brand loyalists.

Good points Doc.

Without doubt there is a gap in the market for a company offering nylon flight jackets somewhere between Alpha and BR/RM.

In a perfect world I would love to see Weintraub go back to making them after picking up one of their B-15Cs. All they would really need to do was tweak their patterns a tad in terms of some small details and they'd be on the ball. When they were still doing nylons their C was about $US64 which was just ridiculously good value considering what you got. If we use their C as an example, if they changed the pattern to have the wind flap come all the way up, sourced a slightly darker blue nylon and theirs would be a brilliant C, even if they charged $200 - $250 for it.

Chances are though it will never happen. They are a DoD contractor so that's their focus. Shame as they could probably make a fairly lucrative sideline with nylon flight jackets if they chose to. I'd like to think there was a market for that but that's probably speculation and wishful thinking on my behalf.

 

[bn1966]

I'd love to see a decent mid-range flight jacket series appear of Alpha 90's Repro quality. The later Alpha USA standard nylon flight jackets were nothing to write home about IMHO, the 'Vintage' Series more acceptable & a range I hold a lot of affection for (I've got examples from all jackets in the series) however for me they are a bit of a 'beater' & can't compare with their better quality repro series cousins. I love the thick nylon & wool interlined repros.

Modern Alpha flight jackets do nothing for me personally what so ever, I can see why they do what they currently do & understand the economics under-pinning it. I own one modern Alpha, an L2B which in the blue I can get away with wearing to work (in my line anything that looked too 'military' would be frowned upon). It's OK quality wise, a bit BIG IMO in fit & certainly not the sort of fit I'd wear out & about (too wide & long). Horses for courses though, some people like the range and fit. Recently (ish) I've acquired a couple of nice service issue L2Bs, one evening after too many beers I pulled the trigger on a new (Chinese) sage Alpha L2B (soon moved it on when sober).

I've tried Gibson & Barnes MA1 types & whilst the quality is good the fit has been far too BIG & modern for my taste. My MA1 light weight doesn't have the nylon look that I crave though does repel water rather well.

Weintraub as noted are no longer producing their classic nylon flight jackets...economics again I suspect. Judging by the amount of used versions that turn up on the Bay I can't imagine their production runs came out in any significant numbers.

Buzz I've some experience of with their size 46 L2A range (2 purchases) & admit to paying prices that have come close to decent leather for what is basically a nylon windcheater. Still when the cost is long forgotten...the quality will remain. I love the Buzz, but would be equally happy with Alpha Reproduction quality (as in my B-15D which $ for $ must give Buzz a run for the money). Must admit to slightly extra care when wearing a Buzz out as compared to an Alpha Repro...which kind of goes against the point for me of owning functional flight jackets (the Buzz gets better treatment than service original nylons).

I really can't fathom Buzz going into the CWU range (thanks for making me aware Dr D). I have a number of originals including early Bi-Swing. The CWU 'Disco' Tan / Gold version is quite amusing, you need to have a strong constitution to wear that out as a civvy in day light. I wore my NOS version out after dark last Fall as a dare.

What we need (as stated Gents) are the equivalent of the Alpha Repro range at affordable prices, quality that doesn't require a re-mortgage. Jackets that hit that spot but that can be enjoyed whilst going about everyday life without thought to cost.

 

[Doctor Damage]

On an unrelated note, here's some info on Alpha with a "general" telephone number listed (703-378-1420):
http://companies.findthebest.com/l/194903/Alpha-Industries-Inc-in-Chantilly-VA

 

[Edward]

Alpha have a nice looking B15 "Repro" in their current catalogue, listed as a "Reproduction". Looks like a D, but as far as I can make out it looks like it has the poly lining, so it's not to the specs of the old Reproduction line. Pity.

The CWU does seem odd given how available issue models still are; I can only assume there must be a fashion market for them (as per black or burgundy MA1-style jackets)? Are the new alphas cheaper than an original, or perhaps are they simply much easier to get hold of forf someone who wants a jacket "kinda like that" but isn't as picky as we might be? I've never really looked into this as my interest in the designs broadly stops with the first MA1 (green liner).

The only thing I could ever fault my Alpha on were the knits which aren't the best in the world... on the other hand, they've not been mothed to the point of needing replaced, which has happened to my Buzz....

 

[Justhandguns]

The CWU does seem odd given how available issue models still are; I can only assume there must be a fashion market for them (as per black or burgundy MA1-style jackets)? Are the new alphas cheaper than an original, or perhaps are they simply much easier to get hold of forf someone who wants a jacket "kinda like that" but isn't as picky as we might be? I've never really looked into this as my interest in the designs broadly stops with the first MA1 (green liner).

I think they sell 'civilian' CWUs is probably because military issued jackets are not supposed to be in public circulation, and then, the list price for a real deal CWU-45/p jacket is in the region of several hundred dollars. I guess their marketing department try to justify the sale of this 'repro' of a current jacket.

 

[Seb Lucas]

(5) Alpha's current mass market jackets are very well constructed. They're not Buzz, but they're not to be looked down on either. I said very well "constructed"; quality is much more than just good materials.


(7) I hate to sound pessimistic, but I just don't think there's that many people out there who want a repro flight jacket at any price.

I think the Doctor makes two very good points. The Alphas are well made and most people wouldn't want or need anything "better". I think there's probably room for an MA1 that falls somewhere between a bog standard Alpha and a Buzz with a more slender cut.