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Lovely Liners
- Thread starter splintercellsz
- Start date
drmaxtejeda
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- Mexico City
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drmaxtejeda
I'll Lock Up
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- 8,363
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- Mexico City
How unusual, Stefan. Nice! Enough with pompous shields of armor already.
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Thanks, Max. I like the cute little rocket and the earth suddenly has rings! How cool is that!?
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M Hatman
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AND having a nuclear symbol for a hat pin and part of the logo is quite cool!!!!!!! I WANT ONE!!!!!
M
Thanks, Mark. To find one in your size may take some patience...AND having a nuclear symbol for a hat pin and part of the logo is quite cool!!!!!!! I WANT ONE!!!!!
M
M Hatman
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Joe, @Blare, pointed out that Champ had a spaceweight too. I did a quick search and it is actually the same liner:
What a cool thread Stefan... thanks for tagging me in [emoji2]
Best,
Joe
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Well let's go for something different. This forum is for more than just exchanging our latest hat finds after all. It's for science too! Ever since I saw Chuck's @DOGMAN custom liners the thought stuck with me, just because of how cool they are. I've had Fleur of Penumbra hats make me some custom liners with fabrics I chose. So far nothing new. But then the thought about the use of crown patch covering had me thinking. Most modern hats have one made of plastic, but the older hats have one made of cellulose, like this one:
This had me wondering if that could be replicated and I went to look for the right materials. Easier said than done and I ended up with a variety of materials, none of which were an exact match. The stuff just isn't there anymore. So I sent off all the materials I had and asked Fleur to try and make me different liners with the different crown patch coverings to see how close we could get. This is the result of that experiment. Bless her for having tried, because it was not an easy job.
In general the materials can be judged by their transparancy: how well do they show the design they're covering? Then there's the thickness of the material and its weight. And finally there's the shape and feel of the material and if it's likely to keep that shape. The original fifties cellulose coverings were a light yellow in colour, very thin, but prone to tearing and creasing. Which is probably why they weren't used anymore after the early to mid sixties.
First one is a waxed transparant bremsilk. This works quite well actually. The picture underneath keeps its colours, the material (being a cloth rather that a paper or cellulose) doesn't crease or tear and doesn't feel plastic. Quite likely similar material was used in hats at some point (I've seen examples of this). It is however very labour intensive and quite different from the original covering shown above.
Second one is tracing paper. I chose the thinnest I could find, but it still has some more thickness compared to the original material. In feel it comes close though and the pictures underneath shows up well. When creased though it discolours (you can see that near the girl's arm). Difficult to work with (so I've been told, because it keeps slipping).
Rice paper or blotting paper. Apart from it lacking the yellow colour of the original material this actually comes most close. Very thin and fragile obviously, but it does show the picture very well and has the same feel. It does breathe and isn't stiff.
Waxed cellulose (used for kites). Not as thin as the original material, but again comes very close. It's a bit more shiny and maybe more waxy feeling, but you could be forgiven for taking it for the real deal. It does colour the underlying picture yellow (obviously). So using it as a covering for a custom liner with pictures like these wouldn't be a good idea. For liners with emblems and names: why not?
Transparant cellulose (giftwrapping material). Again I chose the thinnest of these I could find and this stuff comes in a myriad of colours. This one is yellow because I wanted to come close to the original material. Very thin stuff, not bad in structure and it does breathe, but the feeling is a bit too plasticy and slippery. Apparently a nightmare to work with.
Another tracing paper. Different supplier. This one is less transaparant. The tracing paper can be waxed to improve its transparancy, but that would be a lot more work of course. Other than that: same as with the other tracing paper.
Packing paper. Cheap as chips and very very thin. Not as transparant as the rice paper/blotting paper.
The final conclusion was/is that this is not something worth doing. It's quite fiddly to do and every tiny mistake shows up immediately, be it a crease or a needle stuck through the covering. This means it takes a lot of time and the liner just gets too expensive. an off the shelf replacement liner sets you back a few dollars. A custom one between $15 and $25 depending on the material. These were handmade and would be three to four times the price of a regular custom one.
You would be better off (cheaper anyway) to just make muliple liners of the same design and just throw away a dirty one.
When the hats were made by the thousands in a factory there probably were specialised machines for the liners too, so they could produced at low cost and high quality. To replicate that process by hand is just too labor intensive. We also haven't established if these crown patch coverings were meant to stay there after purchase or they were just there in the shop, so the customer could have a clean liner after he had taken his hat home with him.
As collectors of vintage hats we tend to concentrate on the felts of these hats, but that's not enough acknowledgement of the incredible craftsmanship of the women who finished these hats with the ribbons, bows, brim bindings, liners and sweatbands with outstanding skill.
This had me wondering if that could be replicated and I went to look for the right materials. Easier said than done and I ended up with a variety of materials, none of which were an exact match. The stuff just isn't there anymore. So I sent off all the materials I had and asked Fleur to try and make me different liners with the different crown patch coverings to see how close we could get. This is the result of that experiment. Bless her for having tried, because it was not an easy job.
In general the materials can be judged by their transparancy: how well do they show the design they're covering? Then there's the thickness of the material and its weight. And finally there's the shape and feel of the material and if it's likely to keep that shape. The original fifties cellulose coverings were a light yellow in colour, very thin, but prone to tearing and creasing. Which is probably why they weren't used anymore after the early to mid sixties.
First one is a waxed transparant bremsilk. This works quite well actually. The picture underneath keeps its colours, the material (being a cloth rather that a paper or cellulose) doesn't crease or tear and doesn't feel plastic. Quite likely similar material was used in hats at some point (I've seen examples of this). It is however very labour intensive and quite different from the original covering shown above.
Second one is tracing paper. I chose the thinnest I could find, but it still has some more thickness compared to the original material. In feel it comes close though and the pictures underneath shows up well. When creased though it discolours (you can see that near the girl's arm). Difficult to work with (so I've been told, because it keeps slipping).
Rice paper or blotting paper. Apart from it lacking the yellow colour of the original material this actually comes most close. Very thin and fragile obviously, but it does show the picture very well and has the same feel. It does breathe and isn't stiff.
Waxed cellulose (used for kites). Not as thin as the original material, but again comes very close. It's a bit more shiny and maybe more waxy feeling, but you could be forgiven for taking it for the real deal. It does colour the underlying picture yellow (obviously). So using it as a covering for a custom liner with pictures like these wouldn't be a good idea. For liners with emblems and names: why not?
Transparant cellulose (giftwrapping material). Again I chose the thinnest of these I could find and this stuff comes in a myriad of colours. This one is yellow because I wanted to come close to the original material. Very thin stuff, not bad in structure and it does breathe, but the feeling is a bit too plasticy and slippery. Apparently a nightmare to work with.
Another tracing paper. Different supplier. This one is less transaparant. The tracing paper can be waxed to improve its transparancy, but that would be a lot more work of course. Other than that: same as with the other tracing paper.
Packing paper. Cheap as chips and very very thin. Not as transparant as the rice paper/blotting paper.
The final conclusion was/is that this is not something worth doing. It's quite fiddly to do and every tiny mistake shows up immediately, be it a crease or a needle stuck through the covering. This means it takes a lot of time and the liner just gets too expensive. an off the shelf replacement liner sets you back a few dollars. A custom one between $15 and $25 depending on the material. These were handmade and would be three to four times the price of a regular custom one.
You would be better off (cheaper anyway) to just make muliple liners of the same design and just throw away a dirty one.
When the hats were made by the thousands in a factory there probably were specialised machines for the liners too, so they could produced at low cost and high quality. To replicate that process by hand is just too labor intensive. We also haven't established if these crown patch coverings were meant to stay there after purchase or they were just there in the shop, so the customer could have a clean liner after he had taken his hat home with him.
As collectors of vintage hats we tend to concentrate on the felts of these hats, but that's not enough acknowledgement of the incredible craftsmanship of the women who finished these hats with the ribbons, bows, brim bindings, liners and sweatbands with outstanding skill.
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- Funkytown, USA
Great post, Stefan, and a worthy experiment. Some excellent examples and I really like your liners, as well.
My only question is, are we certain they were originally yellow? I'd kinda always chalked it up to discoloration due to age.
Thanks, Jim. Interesting question. Never thought about that, but I think they were. Discolouring usually takes place under influence of light. A Borsalino coffin box hat I bought last year that had been sitting in its little box for decades had exactly the same yellow colour.
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Custom Presentation liner.
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- 19,001
- Location
- Central California
I stumbled upon this (not mine) store brand hat: F. R. Tripler & Co. made by Byer-Rolnick. Sold in 1964:
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Rmccamey
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- Central Texas
Cool combo!
I stumbled upon this (not mine) store brand hat: F. R. Tripler & Co. made by Byer-Rolnick. Sold in 1964:
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M Hatman
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I would comment here that due to the composition of early Cellulose it does yellow with age...I have different items (toys, figurines, even rayon wedding dresses, clothing articles) made with the older cellulose compositions that do oxidize (both yellowing and foxing) and it has no connection to exposure to sunlight (something you especially don't want to do with earlier hard cellulose/plastic which can in fact become combustible). Just a thought......
PS: Many of our hat lining bodies, made in and after the late 30's are in fact rayon fabrics instead of silk.
PPS: Really COOL experiment by the way!!!!!
Sounds likely and I find these coverings do deteriorate with age, especially becoming brittle. I do believe they were yellow in colour to begin with though. And thanks, Mark.
M Hatman
I'll Lock Up
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- 4,545
I recently bought this one JUST for the Liner......how sick is that?!?!?!?!?
Will be here tomorrow!!!
Will be here tomorrow!!!
Not all that odd, Mark. I can see myself buying a Knox Flying Cloud for exactly the same reason!
