Lost and Confused in Panama

[MD11]

Bob, I don't dispute what's in your heart, clearly you're passionate. I'm sure your intentions are nothing but the best, and your quality is with the best of them as well. I just don't like hearing accusations about anyone that can't be substantiated by an objective outside source (3rd party with no gain).. not saying I don't trust your word, but this is the internet and I don't know you or anyone here well enough to place trust at that level without evidence on something this serious.

Sure the vast majority of members here seem to vouch for you, and that carries A LOT of weight, but it falls short of the necessary support to make me believe that the guy who's got a "lock on the market" down there, has it at gun point; he pays more, he has exclusive contracts, etc.. yes, gun point? Maybe the gun is to prevent hi-jack of a precious commodity as I'm sure these hats are in case of a bandit attempt to steal the lot?

I have relatives in the 3rd world, and while not in that region specifically, the 3rd world is famous for a lot of legend, tale and stories about people.. 90% of which is untrue. BB being the big player down there by definition has to be the target of most attacks, that's just the nature of being a market leader (don't read this as he's better). It's why AirTran compares their service to Southwest, not JetBlue, even though JetBlue is a more worthy competitor with a better product.. JetBlue isn't the market leader (read that as with the largest share of the market, not necessarily the best product).

Business is not an easy thing, I did it for a short while and found it much easier to stick to my professional training and "work for the man.."

Also thank you for your work in the region, I know you're married to a local and have family down there and that tells you're good in intention.

God bless!

Sam

 

[Panamabob]

I don't spout accusations and I have nothing to prove to you. I'm here to help fellow lounge members, the regular Joe, acquire these fine hats without the BS and high pricing. Some people simply can't comprehend someone being fair.

 

[Mike Hammered]

I don't spout accusations and I have nothing to prove to you. I'm here to help fellow lounge members, the regular Joe, acquire these fine hats without the BS and high pricing. Some people simply can't comprehend someone being fair.

Fellow Loungers,

Hear me.

Let's keep this discussion open and civil. We are, after all, all headed in the same direction - great Panamas crafted by skilled and proud artists, brokered by caring, honest and committed dealers at prices that are fair to the craftsmen, dealers and customers, all in an open, safe and honest environment.

The Panama we wear on our head should be a source of pride and enjoyment for everyone involved, bringing happiness because it looks good, pays well and causes grief to no one who touches it.

Mike

 

[rcinlv]

Number 2

A Bogie, blocked by Art:

Sorry, no close up photo. Photobucket us uploading the wrong photo..

Around 800 WPI

Original cost approximately $400. No discount.

Cheers,

RC

 

[rcinlv]

Number 3

Another Optimo, blocked in Ecuador:

Approximately 15x20, around 300 WPI

Original cost $99, not discounted.

Hope this aids in comparison. I would love to see other sellers Panamas, with WPI and cost for comparison.

Thanks,

RC

 

[HungaryTom]

Yes, trust is the issue.

I had to trust Bob blindly the first time sending him the money (equivalent of 1000+ USD in today's weaker dollars gained from emerging market income.
My bet was based on his website content, a few emails exchange and message board posts from people (FLoungers) whom I never knew and whom I will most probably never meet in person.

I learned that Brent Black offers more than weavers expect - his case study on his website coincided timely with my hat abduction. My problem – who cares?
I did sit and wait until Bob managed to by-pass the market leader. All I can say Bob did NOT let me down –I have his hats and I trust him.

Photos: there are enough nice panama hat photos on the sites of Brent Black, Panama Hatworks of Montecristi and on Panama Hats Direct plus on the Fedora Lounge threads I already mentioned. Those are only photos.

Hard evidence: money talks - dog barks. If you want to see facts i.e. own high-end Montecristi hats you must send 900 USD to Indiana and 25000-30000 USD to Brent Black or Milton Johnson or Grant Sergot, Pauls Hatworks, etc. then you will have the comparison holding the top-notch hats.

All the rest (posts and hat photos of strangers, website contents, phone calls) is just information and talk which you either believe or not.

Nobody is perfect, the world is not perfect, neither the first world (USA) or Ecuador (third world) or my country (second world). You have people everywhere who live in first world conditions and ones who live in thrid world conditions. The proportion in the population is different. FLoungers don’t live in third world conditions-that is sure.

There is a reason why Ecuador is an emigration country. There is a reason that the weavers have in such housings only their skill and their pride left, there is a reason why many get alcoholic or abandon those living conditions -the result of the centuries old system- in the hope of something better. Even Simon Espinal wanted to escape to Venezeula – it stands on Brent Black’s site.

Just ask yourself what would you do if you would earn 400 USD or so per month with working up to 8 hours on a weaving bench and 3-4 hours on the fields. What would you advise to your child? Would your child want to stay in a village without canalization, electricity, television? There is a reason why all the world talks about a dying tradition and there is a reason why all parties confronted with reality down there try to help either this or the other way. There is a reason why all hatters donate, why hands are shaken and so on – there is a reason for everything.

 

[Mike Hammered]

Hard evidence: money talks - dog barks. If you want to see facts i.e. own high-end Montecristi hats you must send 900 USD to Indiana and 25000-30000 USD to Brent Black or Milton Johnson or Grant Sergot, Pauls Hatworks, etc. then you will have the comparison holding the top-notch hats.

Tom,

I think high-quality digital cameras make it unnecessary for customers to actually purchase the item before determining its quality. What I mean is that a photo would allow the customer to get an idea of what he was getting for his money (and, I think, encourage a move to the higher-priced items!) and provide a basis for comparison that would allow any reasonable individual to judge whether the delivered product did indeed coincide generally with the ordered item. I do not mean an exact duplicate, only approximate.

This, I believe, would contribute to Panamavana.

Mike

 

[Panamabob]

I think high-quality digital cameras make it unnecessary for customers to actually purchase the item before determining its quality.

I don't see anything wrong with this, other than you can't take a photo of a custom woven hat (commissioned).

 

[Mike Hammered]

I don't see anything wrong with this, other than you can't take a photo of a custom woven hat (commissioned).

PB,

Thanks always for your participation in this important discussion.

I wonder if we could impose upon Hungary Tom to post detailed pictures of the excellent Espinal that you delivered. You could verify that it is the level of quality that such an order would bring.

This, I believe, would help us to approach a standard that would be a great advance.

Mike

 

[Panamabob]

It has been posted on this website many times, so I'm sure he'll oblige.

 

[Mike Hammered]

It has been posted on this website many times, so I'm sure he'll oblige.

PB,

Grande. I feel a breakthrough coming on, with you being the first to document your top-of-the-line product. Cherish the moment that the Panama bar gets raised!

Viva the Panama, Viva the broker, viva the craft !

Mike

 

[Panamabob]

The hats speak for themselves and have been documented for the last 7 years. 90% of the time, people get above and beyond what they've ordered.

 

[HungaryTom]

Mike ,since you asked kindly

The two hats

Closeup of the 1600+ wpsi

The 1600+ wpsi before blocking

I am still eager to see a 30.000 dollars Montecristi fino fino photo!

 

[MD11]

Those are beautiful hats indeed. You have every reason to be proud Bob.

Here is my take on this..

As I'm not an expert in hats, but I've noticed this to be true with a lot of things that seem to rely on workmanship and/or materials. I know a thing or two about guitars. The difference between a $500 Martin DM, and a $1500 Martin D16 is large and noticeable to all but a novice, the difference between the $1500 D16 and the $2500 D28 is less so but still significant, and the $2500 D28 vs the $10,000 D45 is even less so.. the $10,000 D45 vs the D28 Authentic is subjective and pointless for some, and critical for others.. Then there are the vintage pre-war D28's and D45's that sell for $250,000 or more!

Why?

Is there THAT much difference between the $250,000 and the $2500 D28 to justify the price? or is it a matter of rarity and desire to "Have" the $250,000 guitar?

The $30,000 hat and the $1000 hat are probably almost identical in relative terms. The $30,000 hat is made by a certain individual, who happens to be (in the eyes of some) the best in his trade. This hat is then further selected among many of his works as flawless in workmanship, materials and fineness; as there is a cult following for this individuals work, and there is a lot of marketing and hype behind it crates a buzz and this in turn drums up demand for all hats.. Win/Win the way I see it.

On a more serious note, I would love to know how the other $30,000 sellers get their hats if Brent has a lock on Simon's work.. or do they have their own "best" weaver? Where does Milton Johnson for example get his, or the other guy that was mentioned before?

 

[indycop]

I don't know enough about Panama hats to be of any input but the way it comes across to me is there seems to be a pushing for Brent Black on this thread. Don't anyone take that as a personal attack just an observation on my part. I may well be wrong as I am many times, just my $.02.

Personally I don't care who made the hat I would not pay $30,000 for a hat, but I am just a lowly Blue collar (literally) worker who is happy with his $100.00 Panama Bob Montecristi.

-John

 

[Panamabob]

Since I'm way inside the industry, I can tell you that there are many fine weavers. It is too bad that Simon isn't sharing in the fruit of his actions. You new fellows will be gone soon, but I'll still be around plugging the industry in another 5 years, if it hasn't been killed by overpricing and a big ego. Oh, to be an advertising professional who wants to enhance an industry in a way to get rich(er).

What better way to save an industry than to prepare a way for its sustaining? There are very good weavers leaving every year because they just can't afford to make it in weaving. Who makes those lower dollar hats? The guys and girls who don't want to weave anymore because there isn't any money in it...for them.

 

[Panamabob]

Daniel G.'s documentary about the Panama Hat industry is moving along. You'll note Don Manuel (Alarcon) and Don Simon (Espinal) and his kids are featured.

http://www.vimeo.com/416539 Slideshow.


Trailer

http://www.vimeo.com/406351

 

[MD11]

Since I'm way inside the industry, I can tell you that there are many fine weavers. It is too bad that Simon isn't sharing in the fruit of his actions. You new fellows will be gone soon, but I'll still be around plugging the industry in another 5 years, if it hasn't been killed by overpricing and a big ego. Oh, to be an advertising professional who wants to enhance an industry in a way to get rich(er).

Bob, thanks for rejoining the conversation, I was hoping we could do that.

It would gravely trouble me if Brent wasn't being truthful about the giving some 40% of the revenue off a hat back to the artist.. I will ask him this point blank the next time I talk to him about my hat order. I was told that Simons hats take some 2 months to make so that means some 6 hats a year from him.. assuming those are all the $10,000 hats (we'll say average), that means he should be earning 40% of $60,000 or $24,000/yr give or take.. These are rough numbers, and I'm sure there are some $5000 hats and the rare $25,000 hat (from what Brent tells me, VERY, VERY rare)..

So the question is, how well does one live on $24,000/yr in any country? This is sad, but the real travesty is the Chinese manufacturers that pay $2/hr and work their people 7 days a week, 12 hours a day all so we Americans can get our fix at the local Walmart on cheap goods.. I used to fly an empty freighter into Shanghai, or maybe with the occasional Ferrari or Bentley car, and then turn around and fly back 210,000lbs of "Goods" that were once made in the USA.. This all makes the hat weavers plight seem much less serious.. at least his product has the potential to earn him close to 1st world wages, should he be at the top of his game..

What better way to save an industry than to prepare a way for its sustaining? There are very good weavers leaving every year because they just can't afford to make it in weaving. Who makes those lower dollar hats? The guys and girls who don't want to weave anymore because there isn't any money in it...for them.

Bob, well said, and I agree with all of this and what troubles me is that after talking to Brent he said the same thing, so that tells me that you both should be working towards the same goals and cooperating rather than competing in such a cut throat manner.. Maybe it's his fault, maybe it's not.. but were it me, I'd act the bigger man and do the right thing and let the rest of the world do what it wants... my conscience is clear and I can sleep better.

 

[MD11]

Daniel G.'s documentary about the Panama Hat industry is moving along. You'll note Don Manuel (Alarcon) and Don Simon (Espinal) and his kids are featured.

http://www.vimeo.com/416539 Slideshow.


Trailer

http://www.vimeo.com/406351

Cool, thanks for sharing! Seems like a nice place to live.. how are they on entry Visa's and long term residency?

 

[RBH]

Robert.. I cant understand why the good guys get bashed all the time.
I guess its the way of things.
Thanks for being there.
Those that know ... dont need anything else.