Loosened ties...

[CharlestonBows]

As someone who works and goes to school at the same time, I'm often wearing a suit to school, having just come from work.

Ditto.

There are a lot of folks in my law school class that wear a suit or jacket - especially in this last year. They've all made strides at elevating their styles. Granted, courts in SC and the 4th Cir. have a rather strict code of dress, and that impacts a lot of (but not all) firms in town.

But in class, being relaxed in a suit doesn't mean being sloppy. An end-of-the-day adjustment isn't what's at issue here, though. It's starting the day, tie knot at the second button of the shirt.

A bottom waistcoat button staying undone, to me, can't equate, in my mind, to a 2 inch gap intentionally kept at collar.

This will become the new standard?

Lord help us! lol lol lol

This has been a really fun thread.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I am prompted to write a longer piece, but it may never happen. My general feeling is that there is an inherently - and it is managed in this way - sinister motivation behind the codes of dress many of us must adhere to (primarily) in the workplace. Frankly, i don't trust the motives of a person (generic term; not necessarily someone here, though the reading of m,any of our threads shows that they certainly are here) who feels the need to impose his particular thoughts re: style/clothing on people who have no option but to conform. Possibly more on this theme in the future.

bk

 

[Feraud]

Yes, the popped collar. But I'm thinking more Louis Jordan, than Tony Montana.

I dig that look.

I am prompted to write a longer piece, but it may never happen. My general feeling is that there is an inherently - and it is managed in this way - sinister motivation behind the codes of dress many of us must adhere to (primarily) in the workplace. Frankly, i don't trust the motives of a person (generic term; not necessarily someone here, though the reading of m,any of our threads shows that they certainly are here) who feels the need to impose his particular thoughts re: style/clothing on people who have no option but to conform. Possibly more on this theme in the future.

bk

I agree 100% and would love to read and compare thoughts on the subject.
Perhaps we need a separate thread for such a discussion...
Some of the attitudes out there regarding the proper use of a tie (and other pieces of clothing) as a bastion of sober tradition, values, and the conscious precision of proportion towards the male physique is ....wishful thinking.
The average man in 1950(and any era) probably knew as much about the history and importance of his clothing as the average man today does. Style is dictated to the masses and people follow.

To honor individuality I am going to loosen my tie at work today.

 

[CharlestonBows]

Some of the attitudes out there regarding the proper use of a tie (and other pieces of clothing) as a bastion of sober tradition, values, and the conscious precision of proportion towards the male physique is ....wishful thinking.
The average man in 1950(and any era) probably knew as much about the history and importance of his clothing as the average man today does. Style is dictated to the masses and people follow.

We take many things for granted, and not the least of which are the clothes we wear. Very, very few of us wonder about why those buttons ended up on our coat sleeves, or why people cuff trousers. And why should they? However, a man knowing why a certain collar looks good on him, and why a certain cut of suit is more suited (pun, eh! ) for him, based on the science of dressing, the science of proportion, is hardly wishful thinking.

Sure, the average modern man very likely knows and cares little about the why and where of his clothing. This was probably true in the old days, too. But that doesn't matter -- why should he be expected to care about sartorial histories and traditions. However, what he should care about is why his clothing looks good on him. That is the science of proportion; that is the science of clothing.

Cary Grant had a very large head. But you probably never knew that. That's because of the way he dressed himself -- by proportion, according to his physique. No where does this involve the banishment of individuality.

The same can be said for the every-man and a tie. A tie does have an aesthetic value, especially if worn right. It adds a sense of verticality to the visual line of the body, granting a visual symmetry and balance. The width and length that a tie is tied to can compensate and help, along with the rest of his dress, to compensate for physical deficiencies. That's the point of dressing -- to make oneself more attractive to others. (It's a base and primal instinct, lets not kid ourselves).

That is the reason for tradition. Men's dress has been honed, especially over the past 150 years, by the artisans in places like Savile Row, down to a science. It is a very particular one. Each man is different. His body is different, his personality is different. The traditions of dressing have given birth to a unique sartorial arithmetic, allowing tailors and cutters to craft a garment perfectly suited to the individual man -- personality fully accounted for. One can choose to wear a tie expressing his heraldic heritage, or which club he belongs to, or political party, or even just his favorite color -- it doesn't change the scientific function of the tie.

As far as conformity of dress, hey, I'm not saying everyone should wear the same thing all the time. Although it'd make my job easier, and likely more profitable!, it' be a lot less fun. Style, nor dress, should not be dictated to people. Formality and the science of dressing should be communicated to people. Wear a tie, or don't wear a tie -- it doesn't matter to me, personally. I just don't understand doing it halfway.

Certain manners of dress are important because certain forms of dress express measures of formality, seriousness and expresses respect to others. Maybe it is a sinister socialization, who knows -- I sure don't. But it is what it is. But certain manners of dress are appropriate only some of the time. One wouldn't typically wear tails to a picnic, or flip-flops to court. In this regard, clothing is about context. Thats not my beef, anyhow. It would, however, make a very interesting topic to write on, I agree. I look forward to that one!

 

[Tomasso]

I am prompted to write a longer piece, but it may never happen.

My mantra as well.





I'm all over the place on this issue. Growing up, the schools I attended required that a tie be worn whenever on school property, so as soon as school let out the first thing we did was loosen or remove our ties. [huh]

When I became an adult I intuitively felt that there was a 'proper' time and place to loosen my tie. Generally speaking, I'm buttoned up during business hours.

But, I've been know to start an evening like this:

And, end an evening like this:

So I can't be seen to be that much of a stickler.

I will say that at the end of the day, I'm not too keen on city suits being worn with loosened ties.

 

[jgilbert]

At the end of a very long day, will loosened the knot by say a finger or so. Howver this again after a very long day and either within a small group of frineds or on the drive home.

 

[Feng_Li]

I am prompted to write a longer piece, but it may never happen. My general feeling is that there is an inherently - and it is managed in this way - sinister motivation behind the codes of dress many of us must adhere to (primarily) in the workplace. Frankly, i don't trust the motives of a person (generic term; not necessarily someone here, though the reading of m,any of our threads shows that they certainly are here) who feels the need to impose his particular thoughts re: style/clothing on people who have no option but to conform. Possibly more on this theme in the future.

bk

A person in the workplace does not have "no option but to conform." If your job has a dress code and you don't like it, you can get a different job.

 

[StanleyVanBuren]

Work:

School:

 

[CharlestonBows]

^

At the end of a very long day, will loosened the knot by say a finger or so.

:arated:

 

[Mid-fogey]

Good Points CB...

We take many things for granted, and not the least of which are the clothes we wear...

...I agree.

On dress codes, they are going the way of the dodo fast. Even when they exist, they are often barely even enforced. I don't know that they deserve more than a shrug.

 

[jake_fink]

I work near a strip of bars that will draw a lot of lawyering and bidness types on a friday evening. It is always entertaining to watch as they drink (and lawyer dance) and their ties go from loosened, to untied, to tied on their heads - to better facilitate air guitar windmills.

Ties tied or loosened, I can't bring myself to care, but tie your neckwear around your forehead and you become a big, buttery object of my derision. It's a cruel, cruel world.

 

[The Wolf]

Boy, did this get a response

At the end of the day (or at lunch) I sometimes loosen the tie a little and unbutton the top button. Sometimes I roll up my sleeves. I never untuck my shirt tails.
I presume the untied bowtie is not accepted at all.

Sincerely,
The Wolf

 

[happyfilmluvguy]

After a whole day of wearing a tie, I need some air.

 

[reetpleat]

Granted, a tie is quite random, so tied tight or loosened might make no difference. But at the same time, I tend to think that a tied tie looks right, while a loosened tie does not. If yo uwant to not have atie around your neck, wear open collar or an ascot.

But I do think a working man who loosens his tie at hte end of the day, or an actor posing as one has a certain panache.

But I also think that to put on a tie intentionally undone to look like you were a working man who opened his collar at the end of the day, or to put on a loosened tie to say look at me, I am a non conformist by not wearing my tie as it was meant to be worn ends up having a contrived look and is not a particularly stylish way to dress. It is a style in the name of looking the rebel, not intrying to look good as you see looking good to be.

of course, we do not really know the intent of the wearer, but often things are worn in a way that seems to clearly telegraph the intent, so I think we all know the "I am a rebel, look at my non conformism" wearers when we see them.

I guess it all comes down to, do you pull it off or not?

 

[reetpleat]

One example, the loose tie with a polo shirt open collar. I wore that in high school afew times. Consider it quite embarrassing.

 

[jgilbert]

I believe Stanley's pixs are what I would do. That may be more that a finger, however it is still in good taste.

The only problem I have with is pulling on my tie is that I hear threads snapping, as if I am pulling the tie apart. That may be a bigger reason not to do so.

Anybody else ever hear that sound?

 

[reetpleat]

We take many things for granted, and not the least of which are the clothes we wear. Very, very few of us wonder about why those buttons ended up on our coat sleeves, or why people cuff trousers. And why should they? However, a man knowing why a certain collar looks good on him, and why a certain cut of suit is more suited (pun, eh! ) for him, based on the science of dressing, the science of proportion, is hardly wishful thinking.

Sure, the average modern man very likely knows and cares little about the why and where of his clothing. This was probably true in the old days, too. But that doesn't matter -- why should he be expected to care about sartorial histories and traditions. However, what he should care about is why his clothing looks good on him. That is the science of proportion; that is the science of clothing.

Cary Grant had a very large head. But you probably never knew that. That's because of the way he dressed himself -- by proportion, according to his physique. No where does this involve the banishment of individuality.

The same can be said for the every-man and a tie. A tie does have an aesthetic value, especially if worn right. It adds a sense of verticality to the visual line of the body, granting a visual symmetry and balance. The width and length that a tie is tied to can compensate and help, along with the rest of his dress, to compensate for physical deficiencies. That's the point of dressing -- to make oneself more attractive to others. (It's a base and primal instinct, lets not kid ourselves).

That is the reason for tradition. Men's dress has been honed, especially over the past 150 years, by the artisans in places like Savile Row, down to a science. It is a very particular one. Each man is different. His body is different, his personality is different. The traditions of dressing have given birth to a unique sartorial arithmetic, allowing tailors and cutters to craft a garment perfectly suited to the individual man -- personality fully accounted for. One can choose to wear a tie expressing his heraldic heritage, or which club he belongs to, or political party, or even just his favorite color -- it doesn't change the scientific function of the tie.

As far as conformity of dress, hey, I'm not saying everyone should wear the same thing all the time. Although it'd make my job easier, and likely more profitable!, it' be a lot less fun. Style, nor dress, should not be dictated to people. Formality and the science of dressing should be communicated to people. Wear a tie, or don't wear a tie -- it doesn't matter to me, personally. I just don't understand doing it halfway.

Certain manners of dress are important because certain forms of dress express measures of formality, seriousness and expresses respect to others. Maybe it is a sinister socialization, who knows -- I sure don't. But it is what it is. But certain manners of dress are appropriate only some of the time. One wouldn't typically wear tails to a picnic, or flip-flops to court. In this regard, clothing is about context. Thats not my beef, anyhow. It would, however, make a very interesting topic to write on, I agree. I look forward to that one!

I agree and this makes a lot of sense. In another post, i mentioned that ties are random, as are everything else about the concept of a suit, or jacket or anythign else. A different history would hve resulted in something entirely different. But, in terms of what we have, there is very much a sense of proportion and balance that is present. And a tie is part of it.

Now if you ahve alook of "I used to look sharp this morning but it has been a long day," that can work. But if that is the look you are going for from the get go, it seems silly.

 

[Edward]

Not that different from a carefully groomed "unshaven" or three-day-beard look, is 't, or stone-washed and pre-torn jeans.

Or, and the ice I'm moving on gets thinner, leaving your waistcoat's lowermost button open.

A fair point re "designer stubble" (the 80s were evil!) etc.... though I was under the impression that undoing the bottom waistcoat button - ditto for the suit jacket - served a purpose. At least, when I sit down while wearing a waistcoat, with the bottom button undone it sits better on me - all done up, it wrinkle up something shocking. I don't think this is solely attributable to my pot belly! Course, I could always button it while standing and unfasten again when sitting, so it is affected to that degree.

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

when I sit down while wearing a waistcoat, with the bottom button undone it sits better on me - all done up, it wrinkle up something shocking. I don't think this is solely attributable to my pot belly!

In general, either that or the waistcoat is a modern one, more aptly called a crotchcoat, sometimes asking for the lowermost three buttons to be opened. (I'd like to clarify that in either case, I'm talking in general terms and have no reason to assume so in your case in specific.)

 

[Shaul-Ike Cohen]

Serious question: if, even under the influence of three martinis, two hours of dancing and one lovely companion, you feel the urge to loosen your tie, shouldn't you face your weight gain and buy a shirt that fits in the collar? A buttoned shirt shold be comfortable, and a tie shouldn't add any tightness anyway, I think.