Looking for hat information?

[TheOldFashioned]

Hello people. I'm a newbie around here. I'm dropping in to ask for help dating and pricing a small collection of five hats. Three Borsalinos, a Knox and a Dobbs. I can provide specific measurements, but between them brim sizes range from 1 1/2" to 1 3/4", and open crowns range from 4 3/4" to 5 1/2". I'll drop a photograph of each...

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1 to 3 are Borsalinos. 4 is a Dobbs and 5 is a Knox. My guess is that these are post-WWII hats, from the '50s or the '60s? I found toilet paper stuffed in each sweatband, to pad them out of course, and some of it was pink. While I'm not nearly old enough to remember, I think pink toilet paper was a thing in the '50s and '60s?

Some of these hats are in a condition superior to the rest. But if anyone could give me a ballpark going price for these hats (or even better, for each hat) I'd greatly appreciate it. I would likely sell them here, in the classifieds sub-forum. Apologies if this post is inappropriate for this thread.

Edit: Hopefully the pictures are showing now...

As mentioned above, pictures of the interiors would be helpful for aid in identification. I would suspect that with brims that narrow these are 60s or later. If the leather sweatband on the Dobbs and Knox is black this almost assuredly places them no earlier than mid-60s, as prior to then domestic hats used brown. This "tell" doesn't apply to Borsalino (and other European makers).

As also said by others the shorter brims tend to be more common and less desirable. High supply and low demand, well you know... Not to be pessimistic, but I think $50 might be the max to expect. You might be able to fetch a little more for the Borsalinos because of the name. That being said, they are nice hats that appear to be in very good condition. Possibly one with a heathered finish, another with medium hair, overwelt treatments (maybe Cavanagh/mode edge?), a wind trolley. These are all characteristics you can point out to help the sale.

I do remember there being a Lounger relatively recently specifically looking for short brimmed hats (2" or less), but in general most of the members here prefer wider brims. In doesn't hurt to try (and doesn't cost anything) to list on here, but you will likely have better success on eBay. Poke around there and try to find some comps to get an idea for pricing. Good luck with the sales!

 

[jlee562]

Hello everyone.
I'm new here and am having a hard time deciding on a hat (I imagine all newbies do) - have a few questions that I’m hoping someone could help me with.
The two that I am deciding between are their Cattleman and Banjo Peterson models.
Are they made from the same type of fur felt or is one better quality?
Are the brims about the same in flexibility (I’d prefer that it doesn’t bend much in the wind)?
Does the bound edge on the Cattleman hold up better than the raw edge on the Banjo?
Will they both accept the Akubra chin strap?
Am I correct to assume the Cattleman would be better in warmer weather due to the vent holes?
I measure my head as about 58.5 - would it be wiser to go with the 60 and use filler strips - I have always bought xl in less precise measured (inexpensive) hats and am thinking it would be better to start a little loose rather than too tight?
Sorry about so many questions,
Thank you for your time!

Can't answer everything as I don't own either. But as far as general Akubra knowledge.....

the Banjo is heritage grade, containing a higher percentage of hare fur (as opposed to rabbit) than the Cattleman. It is ostensibly, the "nicer" hat of the two. That having been said, the regular ol' Imperial grade is well regarded.

Bound edge won't make a significant difference in durability.

I don't think either accepts the leather stampede strings that need an internal attachment, but they should accept the cotter pin version.

 

[JohnS33931]

Thank you - I did watch a you tube video showing what I believe are the cotter pin type.
Haven’t found those for sale anywhere in the USA though.

 

[Feetlebaum]

Thank you kind gentlemen for the advice! Here are some quick photos of the liners.

#1​

#2​

#3​

#4​

#5​

 

[Rmccamey]

Looks like a collection of good model names even if they are short brims.

 

[TheOldFashioned]

Thank you kind gentlemen for the advice! Here are some quick photos of the liners.

Great, thanks. Jumping ahead to the Dobbs at #4:


The Knox at #5 is likely (early) 60s as well. It is similar to a stingy brim that I have:



If the sweatband is pliable you can roll it back and will find a factory tag hidden underneath the sweatband and liner. I'm suspecting it will look similar to this:


The fact that there isn't a block depth listed (would appear between "334" and "7 1/4") helps to date it in the 1960s. Again, this info is courtesy of http://www.thehattedprofessor.com/. The owner of that site was/is a member here on TFL. And in this case I say early 60s because the sweatband is still brown. I think I paid $40 for mine.

Speaking of cost, the "Twenty" refers to the cost of that Knox hat. Hats that had a cost name attached were higher end hats in their day (there were 15, 20, 25, 50, 100, etc). In my particular opinion you got a lot of hat at the $20 price point, kind of like the sweet spot of best value for money.

Also, the Dobbs and Knox do have the Cavanagh/Mode/Guild/Custom edge I thought I saw in your first pics. (Each maker had their own name for it, but it's all the same. Cavanagh is the original creator of it.) This is a higher end brim treatment, so again another sign of a higher quality hat.

As for the Borsalino's, all bets are off as I am not as familiar with these Italian made hats. Borsalino's are known to be a bit fickle in terms of dating, but I would venture to guess they are roughly the same timeframe. Brim width being the biggest indicator. They all mention "Alessandria" and "Original House", so that means they were made in the old factory before moving in the 1980s. The one is called a "Diamante II" which would lead me to suspect it's a later model as opposed to just a "Diamante." Again, if the sweatbands are pliable you can roll them back and check for a factory tag.

I would also suggest searching through the thread "The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD" on here for more information. Just a quick search has yielded hits for both "Diamante" and "Savona." The same retail shop in Toledo also appears:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-borsalino-brotherhood.13133/page-287#post-2312207

Hope this helps!

 

[belfastboy]

Thank you - I did watch a you tube video showing what I believe are the cotter pin type.
Haven’t found those for sale anywhere in the USA though.

Any western shop that sells western hats will likely have a selection. David Morgan the US Akubra distributor sells them online. I have one and they are great quality but with the shipping really pricey. Best bet is to look up shops that sell western hats or Ebay, there is bunch available of varying quality there.

 

[Feetlebaum]

Great, thanks. Jumping ahead to the Dobbs at #4:
View attachment 155963

The Knox at #5 is likely (early) 60s as well. It is similar to a stingy brim that I have:
View attachment 155965
View attachment 155966

If the sweatband is pliable you can roll it back and will find a factory tag hidden underneath the sweatband and liner. I'm suspecting it will look similar to this:
View attachment 155967

The fact that there isn't a block depth listed (would appear between "334" and "7 1/4") helps to date it in the 1960s. Again, this info is courtesy of http://www.thehattedprofessor.com/. The owner of that site was/is a member here on TFL. And in this case I say early 60s because the sweatband is still brown. I think I paid $40 for mine.

Speaking of cost, the "Twenty" refers to the cost of that Knox hat. Hats that had a cost name attached were higher end hats in their day (there were 15, 20, 25, 50, 100, etc). In my particular opinion you got a lot of hat at the $20 price point, kind of like the sweet spot of best value for money.

Also, the Dobbs and Knox do have the Cavanagh/Mode/Guild/Custom edge I thought I saw in your first pics. (Each maker had their own name for it, but it's all the same. Cavanagh is the original creator of it.) This is a higher end brim treatment, so again another sign of a higher quality hat.

As for the Borsalino's, all bets are off as I am not as familiar with these Italian made hats. Borsalino's are known to be a bit fickle in terms of dating, but I would venture to guess they are roughly the same timeframe. Brim width being the biggest indicator. They all mention "Alessandria" and "Original House", so that means they were made in the old factory before moving in the 1980s. The one is called a "Diamante II" which would lead me to suspect it's a later model as opposed to just a "Diamante." Again, if the sweatbands are pliable you can roll them back and check for a factory tag.

I would also suggest searching through the thread "The BORSALINO BROTHERHOOD" on here for more information. Just a quick search has yielded hits for both "Diamante" and "Savona." The same retail shop in Toledo also appears:

https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-borsalino-brotherhood.13133/page-287#post-2312207

Hope this helps!

It certainly does! Thanks for the resources.

By the way, the factory tag on the Knox does not have a block depth number between the block and size numbers, like you said.

 

[Robert Miller]

I have 2 Stylemasters and a Leisure Time in a 58, The Stylemasters had to be stretched, the Leisure Time is about right. I ordered a Traveller in a 59 thinking it would shrink to fit until I realized it doesn't have a leather sweatband. If it's too big should I figure on it shrinking or send it back?

 

[JohnS33931]

Any western shop that sells western hats will likely have a selection. David Morgan the US Akubra distributor sells them online. I have one and they are great quality but with the shipping really pricey. Best bet is to look up shops that sell western hats or Ebay, there is bunch available of varying quality there.

Thanks for everone’s help!
After agonizing over my choice of hat, I decided to order one I hadn’t previously considered - the “Blue Mountains” hat through Hats Direct.
I also measured about 20 times and with my wife’s recommendation - ordered a size 60. She said that I was squeezing the tape measure too tight and I will try not to blame her if it is too large
Without pulling it fairly tight, I measured just over 59. I did order some filler strips just in case.
Also decided to get it in Bluegrass color, as I thought it might be a little cooler than the Lodan. the graphite grey cattleman.
This far Hats Direct has been great - even offered to install the Akubra chinstrap for me.

 

[Mark70]

Thanks for everone’s help!
After agonizing over my choice of hat, I decided to order one I hadn’t previously considered - the “Blue Mountains” hat through Hats Direct.
I also measured about 20 times and with my wife’s recommendation - ordered a size 60. She said that I was squeezing the tape measure too tight and I will try not to blame her if it is too large
Without pulling it fairly tight, I measured just over 59. I did order some filler strips just in case.
Also decided to get it in Bluegrass color, as I thought it might be a little cooler than the Lodan. the graphite grey cattleman.
This far Hats Direct has been great - even offered to install the Akubra chinstrap for me.

Good thing you measured again. A word of advice when breaking it in, don't use the filler strips even if it fits too loose. Check out Zombie_61's post on the Akubra Overload thread.

 

[JohnS33931]

Good thing you measured again. A word of advice when breaking it in, don't use the filler strips even if it fits too loose. Check out Zombie_61's post on the Akubra Overload thread.

Good thing you measured again. A word of advice when breaking it in, don't use the filler strips even if it fits too loose. Check out Zombie_61's post on the Akubra Overload thread.

I've been searching for a post from Zombie_61 and filler strips to no avail.
Did read that he said his have shrunk down after wearing them.
Will the filler strips prevent it from shrinking properly or are they just unnecessary?
Thanks again for your help!

 

[Mark70]

If I recall correctly, further on down in that same thread (and other threads) there's information about the use of those filler strips, essentially it's a matter of preference. It would likely be best to avoid using them during the "break-in period" to allow the sweatband to better conform to your head dimensions unless there's just too much of a gap. I'm still breaking in my Stylemaster and am doing my best to follow Zombie_61s advice. My only problem thus far is I haven't really sweated hard in it and don't wear it every day so the break-in period is taking a lot longer than with regular wear.

 

[JohnS33931]

Thanks - I was wondering if avoiding the strips was to let the hat “mold” better to my head.
The sweat part shouldn’t be a problem - I’m in Florida.
Just got an email from Hats Direct saying that my hat has shipped!

 

[jlee562]

You can always put the strips in without removing the adhesive backing. If the band shrinks up, you can remove it.

 

[Just A Hat Rack]

I second what Jared says. I'll also add that it is the leather sweatband that shrinks, not the felt. If the hat is too large then I would use the strips until the sweat shrinks to a size that fits better. It will take a little bit of time to allow your sweat and oils from your head to affect the sweatband.

 

[Zombie_61]

I've been searching for a post from Zombie_61 and filler strips to no avail...

I thought I had mentioned them once or twice somewhere here on The Lounge, but I may have used the term "foam strips" rather than "filler strips" because that's what Hats Direct sent with each hat I've ordered from them--a thin piece of foam rubber with adhesive backing on one side. I had done the research before I ordered my first Akubra so I expected it to be loose at first, but wasn't prepared for it to be as loose as it was so I tried putting the foam/filler strip behind the sweatband without exposing the adhesive strip. It was uncomfortable so I removed it almost immediately and wore the hat loose until the sweatband shrunk as expected.

...Did read that he said his have shrunk down after wearing them...

Yes, both the Heritage Grade and Imperial Grade sweatbands will shrink, but they're different types of leather so the Heritage Grade shrinks quite a bit less than the Imperial Grade.

...Will the filler strips prevent it from shrinking properly or are they just unnecessary?

Akubra's sweatbands will shrink with or without them, and some members here have used them successfully; some of them left them in place after the sweatband shrunk, others removed them as their hat(s) became more snug. So I wouldn't say they're unnecessary.

As I wrote above I thought it was uncomfortable, but being new to hats I also didn't want to run the risk of that material permanently distorting the sweatband as it shrunk, which was the other reason I removed it. Now that I'm more familiar with Akubras, my suggestion to anyone would be to wear the hat as-is until the sweatband shrinks, then use the foam/filler material if needed.

 

[JohnS33931]

Thanks again for everyone’s help!
Great informatiin here.
I will definately go without the foam strips and see how it goes.
I also have to thank the people at Hats Direct. I was really unsure of whether to go 59 or 60. They checked their supply and found one that came in at 59.5 and shipped that one out to me!
Looking forward to it.
If I don’t crack the lens, I’ll try to post pictures.

 

[Rmccamey]

Personally I buy thin felt sheets in the Crafts section of most chain stores (Walmart, Michael's, etc) and cut strips to go in my hats. They cost less than a dollar for an 8x10 sheet and they are very thin and compress easily making it easy to stack two strips together, if needed, and remove them when the hat finally conforms to my head. Other filler strips I have seen are much too thick and always seem to make the band "bunch up".

 

[JohnS33931]

Personally I buy thin felt sheets in the Crafts section of most chain stores (Walmart, Michael's, etc) and cut strips to go in my hats. They cost less than a dollar for an 8x10 sheet and they are very thin and compress easily making it easy to stack two strips together, if needed, and remove them when the hat finally conforms to my head. Other filler strips I have seen are much too thick and always seem to make the band "bunch up".

That is a great idea - thank you!