Let's See Your Watches! The Vintage Watch Thread.

[PrettyBigGuy]

Sorry that I have been adsent from the Lounge lately, but I just returned from gettin' hitched out on the Left Coast! What does that have to do with watches you ask? well let me tell you a story.
Back in November of last year my fiancé accepting a promotion at work that would re-locate us from So Cal to the Chicago area. Not long before we left, we saw a beautiful Elgin pocketwatch in a watch shop in Long Beach. It had been brought in for cleaning and refurbishment and was never picked up, so it was on sale for $200. I had been on the look-out for a nice vintage pocketwatch and this one was exactly the size, color and style that I was after. Unfortunatley, money was tight with the impending move so we had to pass on it. a few days later I returned to the store and it was gone.
Skip ahead to May of this year. my bride-to-be and I were back in Long Beach aboard the Queen Mary and about to tie the knot. My groomsmen and were on our way to the chapel when along comes the maid of honor. She hands me a package from the bride with instructions to open it before the ceremony. I opened it up and was shocked to see the Elgin pocketwatch! She had bought it the day after we saw it and hid it away for almost seven months as a wedding gift to me. What a gal! Here are some pics. Michaelson, I'm depending on you for some good intel about it.

Here is the watch opened up. note the small lever at 5 o'clock that is flipped out when setting the time. There appears to be a new crystal, and there are some minute fractures in the face @ 7 o'clock and 10 o'clock.

Here is the cover. The engraving is showing some real signs of wear and there are some small dents on the edges.

Here's the bottom edge. note the dents and the hinges on both sides. I am trying to resist the urge to open up the back!

Any comments or insights are encouraged. I don't know much about this watch and I'm anxious for some info! It's also worthy of note that this watch seems to stop working if it is left alone for too long. Once you pick it up though, it starts ticking again.
Here are some pics of my Russian pocketwatch. I have mentioned it in the Lounge before, but I have never posted pics:

The face.

the cover.

The back.

 

[jamespowers]

First, congratulations on your marriage and many happy returns.
I hate to break it to you but you have to open up the back (carefully!) to find out about that watch. The serial number on the movement will give you all the information you will ever want to know.
I see a bit of an inscription there on the inside of the lid. Did she have it personally inscribed as well? :cool2:

Regards to all,

j

 

[Mycroft]

Congrades to you and your old and new family and I have seen the watch with the red star here: http://www.sieglers.com/categories/cat_2830.html

 

[android]

Congratulations on a nice watch and an equally nice wife!

My Hamilton had the same stopping problem. It needed cleaning and then some additional adjustments. It doens't stop now unless it winds down.

Don't worry about opening it if you're going to have it cleaned anyway. The watchmakers get all excited, but it's OK to take a look infrequently in a clean place. Don't blow on it. Some people seem to want to this. It's bad for it.

It's probably a "grandfathered" railroad watch. It's got the right numerals and it's lever set. But a fully compliant RR watch would only have the stem at the 12:00 position.

 

[PADDY]

This time-piece thread is getting really interesting...

This is becoming like Antiques Roadshow for vintage pocket watches. I can't wait to find out about the wedding present pocket watch! Congratulations on your wedding (any pics of it to post? seriously!!). And yes, I for one would love to know if your beloved had the inside of the watch engraved too (as that's such a great gesture!). What a fine story :cheers1:

 

[android]

Not to knock nuptial sentimentality, but having vintage and antique watches engraved is generally considered bad form. We're really just caretakers and they should be preserved and refurbished, but alterations should be avoided.

 

[Michaelson]

Howdy PBG, and please add my congrats to the pile! Very nice Elgin. Appears to be an 18s, and a coin silver case. The dial looks very nice too...though I can't make out if there are any hairline cracks. Doesn't look like it. As the others say, we can't tell a whole lot until we see inside the 'engine room'.

Oh, Android, don't get his hopes up with the 'grandfathered railroad watch' statement. Just because it's lever set makes absolutely NO difference. I have more than one fine looking 18s lever set watch, one coin silver hunter case, another a gold filled Boss hunter, and neither of them even make railroad grade, one being a 7j, the other a 17j. That said, even if it is, hunter cased pocketwatches WERE accepted for railroad service right up until 1908, so the mop could flop in either direction. We just can't tell a thing from what we're seeing here, and won't until we see the movement, and see the movement number....then ALL will be revealed!!

Nice looking watches, PBG! As to the stopping problem...there are so many different things that it could be, it would be up to a watchmaker to determine what it could be....a bad pinion...an out of poise balance wheel....a cracked balance jewel....a bad staff....or just a small piece of lint gett caught in the 4th gear in a certain position (I've experienced everything mentioned here at one time or another). There's just no set thing to state what it could be.

Regards! Michaelson

 

[PrettyBigGuy]

Thanks for the kind words Gentlemen.
To answer some questions, yes she did have the watch engraved on the inside, It says: "Daniel, I'm counting the moments forever, Jeanna". Hence the reason she wanted me to open it before the ceremony. I can understand how this could be considered "bad form" but it was a beautiful gesture IMHO and I doubt the watch is going anywhere outside my family again. I will pop the back open and get the serial number. Is there a good website that I can use the chase down some more info?
Our wedding had a 1940s theme, so it will fit right in with the Lounge. Since there are no pics yet, I have decided to refrain from starting a thread about it until then. There were a few Lounge members present, so hopefully they will chime in then as well.
PBG

 

[Michaelson]

Yep, there sure is....
Elgin data site

As to the 'bad form' statement...there are two camps on that thought process, and many folks see the old watches as tools of TODAY'S trade and use, and others see it exactly as android states, and technically they're both correct. It can be taken to any extreme. Considering that this is now a family piece, it should REMAIN in this family as an heirloom piece to the PBG clan, the engraving is a sound idea. Some watch collectors would hang you in effigy, though. (grins)

High regards! Michaelson

 

[PrettyBigGuy]

Thanks for the website, Michaelson. I will have to chase down the model now! Okay I crcked it open and took some pics. They didn't turn out too clear, so the info is hard to see.

The serial # is at the top. beneath the movement it says "Safety Pinion" and at the bottom it reads "Elgin Natl Watch Co. USA"
No other info that I can see about the movement.

 

[Michaelson]

Read us the number. I can't see it. Looks like a 7j to me, but we'll know for sure once you give us that number. Nice damaskeening on the plate!! Regards! Michaelson

 

[PrettyBigGuy]

The # is 13511567
Release the Hounds!

 

[Michaelson]

18s, 7j, Grade 287, hunter cased movement, Built 1907, 2000 made in the run that year. Made from 1903 until 1910. A total of 110,00 made in a total of 74 runs in that time period.

Regards Michaelson

Data lookup

 

[PrettyBigGuy]

Wow! So it's 98 years old? I had no idea. Thanks for chasing down the info, I'll let you know when I get the problem with stopping sorted out. I showed the watch to Chamorro at the wedding and when he saw that it was an Elgin, he told that the watch was going home (Elgin, IL is only about 25 minutes away from where I live.).

 

[jamespowers]

In regards to engraving, I find that it helps to identify the watch and the year it was given and from who to who. I have several that were engraved and it doesn't bother me a bit. One even has a personalized dial with a name on the face instead of numbers. I figure it gives me a look into life 100 or more years ago. The wrist watch I am wearing today has a monogram of RGU on the back of it and I don't mind.
I think you have actually added value to your watch for your descendents. They can never forget the date it was given or what it was for. The thing many people forget is that it is YOURS. You are free to do with it what you want. If my wife gave me an engraved watch I would treasure it all the same. Maybe in the future someone will give it to another member of your family in the same manner long after we are all gone. It will be like you were still involved and present.
That is the way i think of it anyway and I have hundreds of watches.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Michaelson]

James, glad to see we're on the exact same page on this. In a related situation, I'm carrying a Hamilton Model 974 'Electric Special' 17j in my pocket today (marketed to and used by trolleymen at the turn of the 20th century) that was a basketcase, and would have gone the way of a parts watch and gold melter by the antique store owner who had it, had it not been for an inscription I discovered in the inside back cover of the swing out case....'To J. Perron, from wife and daughters, 1915". I HAD to rescue it, as 100 years from now, that could be MY watch floating around in an antique store, and then junked for lack of anyone caring that it had been a gift from my family. I'm hoping old Mr. Perron is smiling from somewhere knowing someone saved his watch from oblivion...a gift from HIS wife and girls back in 1915.

Regards! Michaelson

 

[jamespowers]

That reminds me of the aforementioned watch with the owners name onthe Dial. Instead of numbers the letters WILL ANDERSON surround the dial. On the back cover it says: From Father 1899. I couldn't let someone junk it or change it just because the dial and case were personalized. Will probably treasured that watch all of his life. It still ran when I got it! A testimony to over 100 years of service. I still have to do a search on Will Anderson to see if he was someone famous---other than to me. Nonetheless, it is snapshot of time.

Regards to all,

J

 

[Michaelson]

Nice job! :cheers1: High regards! Michaelson

 

[Michaelson]

Read an interesting 'blurb' yesterday regarding the reasons watches from the early 40's through the mid-50's are usually found either in totally worn out condition, or practically new/old stock condition...no in-between. There was a 20% excise tax imposed on luxury items when WW2 began, and watches were included in that tax. This also included repair work done on the items. What DIDN'T happen after the war ended was the tax, and this 20% tax was not repealed until just after the Korean War, in 1954. So, folks who owned watches ran them into the ground, or just used those in fairly decent running condition to judge time. You've read in more than one detective novel of the period of the hero either having a watch that wasn't working correctly, or not having a watch at all, but checking time from someone else's wrist (or the wall of a local dive). You also see more vintage photos of men WITHOUT watches on than with. Any watch owned was usually worn only when dressing up for town, work (white collar), or church. You didn't want to take any chances with it otherwise.

The other end of that stick was the higher end watches were sitting on jewelers shelves gathering dust, as no one wanted to pay, or could affort the price of the finer pieces with the added 20% addition the government got for the sale. It was due to this tax, and the attitude that citizens took about their purchases that the U.S. watch industry began it's rapid, and final descent to the abyss. By the end of the 50's, only Elgin and Hamilton were still standing, of all the U.S. watch companies that were in operation before that decade had been sold off or absorbed by other industries, and by the mid 60's, even those two ceased U.S. operations.

So, when you see watches for sale that, for all intents or purposes, look too good in condition to be true...trust me, they are usually IN that good a condition, as they were probably never used or worn.
As time progressed, styles changed, the the square/tank styled watches fell out of vogue, as with the repeal of the tax, folks could afford to replace their worn out 30's watches, but wanted the more modern round, self winders...a successful product of the Swiss watch industry. The 40's/early 50's watches were buried back in inventory and forgotten. These are now coming out of the woodwork for sale (and at very reasonable prices for the more pedestrian types like Elgin or Bulova), where the Hamiltons and Gruens that are showing up are getting some extraordinary prices these day, simply due to condition and rarity.....and all because Uncle Same wanted his cut of the sale LONG after the monies were needed for the War effort of WW2!
Little trivia for thought as you wander the dusty shelves of your local antique stores!

Regards! Michaelson

 

[jamespowers]

Makes sense to me. The government never takes into account the unintended consequences of their actions. More than once the actions of government have bankrupted businesses and put people out of work.
I suppose, in this case, it is good for us collectors but in the long run it killed the watch industry in the US that would still be supplying us with high quality watches---not the Swiss. Bunch of greedy government weasels. :rage:

Regards to all,

J